Question about the Bach Sonata lesson

a22 · #1 03-10-2009, 03:36 PM

Alright, I'm practicing the Bach sonata and I'm just wondering, the piece is clearly in G minor, even stated in it's name, why is the key signature in the sheet music in D minor, wouldn't it make more sense to add the Eb to the signature to get rid of all the sharps? Is it a simple error or is there a reason for this? It's not that big of a deal really, but I thought I'd ask

JohnW400 · #2 03-10-2009, 08:23 PM

I have the Shirmers Violin edition and the first sonata is in G minor. This is not the only place I'v e seen it posted with one flat. I don't why only one flat but it's definately in G minor

Veqq · #3 03-10-2009, 11:02 PM

It says it's in B minor, name wise. And the music shows F Maj/ D Min you said.
So... I dunno. :/

guitarone · #4 03-11-2009, 04:53 PM

perhaps it suggests that the piece is in the Dorian mode ?

JohnW400 · #5 03-11-2009, 08:34 PM

I though that too but the cadences are really V-i, D7 to Gmi. Also calling the key by the mode in western music didn't really come into play in Bach's time. There's a thread on another forum (where I lurk) that deals with this very issue.

Again, the shirmers violin edition shows two flats and the Sonata is named Sonata in Gmi. The oly other place I saw this was on a free chart available from the Classical Guitar School of Iceland. Here's the whole thing w/o tab

fast1 · #6 03-13-2009, 01:40 AM

hey i cant download the pdf file

funnyval · #7 03-13-2009, 11:50 AM

The key signature not matching the key is evidently common, especially in Baroque minor key compositions. The purpose of the key signature is to reduce the number of accidentals that appear in the music, not necessarily to indicate the key.

In Bach's time a piece in G Minor might be better notated with a key signature of one flat if it used more E natural than E-flat notes, as it would if it made more use of the so-called ascending melodic minor scale or the very common V of V chord.

This page has a good summary of the key signature topic:
The Classical Key signature Dictonary Page on Classic Cat

a22 · #8 03-13-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funnyval

The key signature not matching the key is evidently common, especially in Baroque minor key compositions. The purpose of the key signature is to reduce the number of accidentals that appear in the music, not necessarily to indicate the key.

In Bach's time a piece in G Minor might be better notated with a key signature of one flat if it used more E natural than E-flat notes, as it would if it made more use of the so-called ascending melodic minor scale or the very common V of V chord.

This page has a good summary of the key signature topic:
The Classical Key signature Dictonary Page on Classic Cat

Ahh of course, the ascending melodic minor! I should've realized this, thanks for the very thorough answer, you know your stuff!

JohnW400 · #9 03-13-2009, 03:39 PM

Tht sound like a good enough explanation to me. Thanks.

funnyval · #10 03-13-2009, 04:56 PM

You're welcome, guys. Great question, a22. It shows that even topics that at first glance do not seem to be that really big of a deal can get complex quickly and often have a lot of history behind them.

a22 · #11 03-14-2009, 02:43 PM

I was indeed hoping to learn something new and I did, thanks to you!

Stringbean · #12 03-14-2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funnyval

dit made more use of the so-called ascending melodic minor scale or the very common V of V chord.

What's is this V of V chord?
Thanks

a22 · #13 03-14-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stringbean

What's is this V of V chord?
Thanks

Now this I can hopefully answer, I hope you're familiar with the way chords are called with the roman numerals, the first chord of a key is the tonal center I and ii as the two chord etc. Now a common way to incorporate sounds from outside a certain key is to borrow chords from another key in a smooth fashion, and this is where we finally get to the V of V concept, it simply means that you count five notes of the scale up from the V of a key as if the V was actually the I so in C major the V of V would be the V of a G: a D dominant chord, basically borrowed from the key of G major

Stringbean · #14 03-15-2009, 01:00 AM

can you give an example of it being used in a tune?

funnyval · #15 03-15-2009, 08:09 AM

There is a good list of V of V tunes at 47, including Cherokee, Exactly Like You, Alexander's Ragtime Band, Danny Boy, etc.

Also compare V of V functionality to II7 - 46.

Often there is an "interpolated IIm7" between the V of V and the V. "A Train" is a great example (C D7 Dm7 G7 C).

This chord has been so common since the time of Bach, Mozart, Handel, Haydn, etc. that some theorists don't even consider it an altered or borrowed chord, just a natural function of the key. Look for how it is used in a minor key in the Bach Sonata that started this thread (look for C# notes in Gm).

Stringbean · #16 03-15-2009, 11:12 AM

Thanks, very nice Ralph Pat Jazz Web Page there. Those lists are brilliant.

I think I'm catching on to the V of V concept.

• If the II7 chord leads to the V chord, it's called a "borrowed" V of V chord.

• IF the II7 leads back to I chord, it's called a "substitute" chord.

I pretty sure I've heard some V of V borrowing in a a few Beatles tunes.

Thanks again.

funnyval · #17 03-15-2009, 03:33 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah! The Beatles loved V of V and II7. You can hear the brightness of V of V in "Good Day Sunshine" (it also has a V-of V-of-V).

The early Beatles sounded so fresh because of their innovative use of chord progressions. One of the most striking is the use of V of V moving deceptively to IV, for example in "Eight Days A Week" and "She Loves You".

After V of V moves to IV in "Day Tripper" it goes on some harmonic twists for a couple of measures before finally getting to V.

There are many other Beatles examples of this.

rio · #18 03-16-2009, 02:53 AM

The edition I read from also has it in one flat. Also if it has not been mentioned this is the first half and is not the end - there is a second half.

Anyone interested in this, all 6 of these solo violin pieces are awesome for learning the neck. After doing this in one position move it to another etc. (extending down for the lower notes, for example, when doing it in V, extending up when doing it in extended II) and then after doing a few it is easier to see what the best fingerings are. It's all such great music too.

Also I'm sure that this was tabbed out this way for some reason but there is definitely a more efficient way to play parts of this - if I have time this week I'll record this first half and put it up on youtube (cause I am too lazy to write it all out with fingerings/positions!), but it is definitely good to know all the possibilities, so learning it this way is not the end of the world.

MackStrat71 · #19 03-16-2009, 06:25 AM

I went searching for the original sheet music, and I found the whole set of violin sonatas at this site (but don't know which publisher edition this was originally from):

Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin, BWV 1001-1006 (Bach, Johann Sebastian - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music)

There is a second half of this piece there, not quite as easy to read, but it brings the sound back to resolve on Gm, where the first part of the transcription winds up on a D7, just begging to go on...

markf · #20 03-18-2009, 09:39 AM

you can buy this whole thing in book form for about 8 bucks at most sheet music stores.

markf · #21 03-18-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funnyval

One of the most striking is the use of V of V moving deceptively to IV, for example in "Eight Days A Week" and "She Loves You".

After V of V moves to IV in "Day Tripper" it goes on some harmonic twists for a couple of measures before finally getting to V.

There are many other Beatles examples of this.

I don't think there is any five to four change in eight days a week, what are the lyrics at that point?

m78w · #22 03-18-2009, 09:15 PM

That would be my guess, that this is just the first part and it's resolving to the V key D, then it'll move back to Gm later in the piece. Makes more sense to me that way.

MW

funnyval · #23 03-22-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markf

I don't think there is any five to four change in eight days a week, what are the lyrics at that point?

Mark, you misread my post. I said V of V moving to IV.

(D) Ooo I need your
(E) love babe,
(G) guess you know it's
(D) true.

markf · #24 03-23-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funnyval

Mark, you misread my post. I said V of V moving to IV.

(D) Ooo I need your
(E) love babe,
(G) guess you know it's
(D) true.

Yes, You're right, I apologise.

I wonder, do you think, for rock music, the Beatles introduced that progression? and those sounds?

Before that, I think it was mostly 1, 4, 5, with a 6 chord sometimes. Rockabilly, and so on.

Then the progression you have here, in various versions, THE rock progression, think THE WHO, and many many bands. (

funnyval · #25 03-23-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markf

I wonder, do you think, for rock music, the Beatles introduced that progression?

I wish I was qualified to answer that question. I would not be surprised though if it did turn out that the Beatles originated the V of V to IV for rock and maybe even popular music in general.

As far as I can tell from reviewing Alan W. Pollack's excellent Notes On ... Series, "She Loves You", released in the UK as a single on August 23, 1963 was the first appearance in a Beatles song of V of V to IV (along with other surprises like not starting on I as well as V of V to iv, and of course the trademark added 6th vocal harmony on the final "yeah" in the "yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah" parts).

If anyone knows of any earlier example, I'd love to hear about it.

funnyval · #26 07-05-2011, 07:48 AM

I found an earlier example of V of V moving to IV referenced in the book "The Foundations of Rock" by Walter Everett. The song is titled More Than I Can Say. The book references Bobby Vee's 1961 version, but the song was originally written by members of the Crickets in 1959 after Buddy Holly's death.

The Crickets version made it to #42 on the British charts in 1960. Bobby Vee's version reached #61 on Billboard and as high as #4 on the UK singles chart in 1961.

The verse chords in the Crickets key of D are basically:

| D _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ | Bm _ _ _ | _ _ _ _ |

| F#m _ _ _ | E7 _ G _ | D _ G _ | D _ _ _ |

So this usage precedes the Beatles by several years.