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Suppose a melody in the key of C minor. The notes are c d e-flat g a-flat c. Transposing it to the fourth mode of C minor, F phrygian, I get the notes f g a-flat c d-flat and f. Whether I write it down in notation, draw the notes on a neck diagram, or play it, the d-flat seems correct. But all modes of C minor must contain the same notes. How can it be that the ionian mode, the first mode, contains a d, while the phrygian mode contains a d-flat? I know I'm doing something wrong but it sounds right. Where is my error?
Thanks very much.
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04-16-2024 11:49 PM
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If aeolian is the 1, dorian is the 4, not phrygian. F dorian has a d in it.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
If you're transposing it to a different mode of the same key, then you want a diatonic transposition rather than an exact transposition.
If I'm going from C D Eb and F, but I want to transpose it to the third degree of the scale, I use the same interval quantity, but with whatever quality is diatonic to the key. So ... Eb F G Ab
If I want to make a transposition to a different key, then I go for the exact same intervals from the root ... so Eb, up a whole step to F, up a half step to Gb, up a whole step to Ab. So Eb F Gb Ab.
So in your original thing ... to put it bluntly ... you came up with a note that wasn't in the key because you put a note there that wasn't in the key.
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Are you transposing the key to F minor
rather than playing 4th mode C minor?
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Thank you for the replies. I need to think through them to see where I'm off and then I'll come back with a question again. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by voyage
F Minor is the Aeolian mode of Ab Major, thus the Db (the 4th note of Ab Major scale).
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I don't know what it means to transpose a melody which is diatonic to Cminor -- to a mode of Cminor.
When you transpose a melody, if you want it to sound the same in the new key, all the intervals have to be the same.
That would mean you're transposing to Fminor not fourth mode of Cminor. They aren't the same thing.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I like to say 'jazz minor' - but for some reason people don't use that.
It bugs me and probably ONLY me that there is such a thing as 'melodic minor harmony' - reading that makes my eyes bleed regularly.
Anyway, this thing about the classical minor having a different scale going up and down and the jazz minor having a scale that is the same going up and down... reality as usual is more blinking complicated.
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Yeah, "melodic minor harmony" is an oxymoron...
I'm with you on the "jazz minor." Start a petition?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Jazz is a genre, not a rigid discipline.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
Would this alter the answer to the question?
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Christian will be along to correct me on gallant use of the melodic minor shortly or some sh**, but broad strokes.
(though I have to agree with Christian on how obnoxious it is to have to say melodic minor harmony)
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
In practice, however, I've found that one has to be very careful using the mel m in certain situations. Say you have Dm7 - G7 - CM7. Going up, using the C# with the Dm is great. But coming down the C# isn't right, it's far better to resort to the natural C for it resolve nicely, both on the G7 and C.
So it depends. I often, indeed usually, use both directions of mel m but generally with non-resolving doms and other places. So it definitely depends. Regardless of any set definitions.
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Originally Posted by voyage
Shifting a line or melody up a 4th within a key (e.g., playing over the I chord vs. the IV chord in a C minor blues), you are staying within the original key (3 flats, C Aeolian) so you'll keep the D natural. This is not transposing, you might think of it as changing modes- as noted by someone else, this would be F Dorian not F Phrygian, which would have 5 flats.
However, you might or might not like the D natural against the F minor chord in context and might or might not use the D flat (e.g., voice leading a half step back the the C tonic note when the chord changes back to the I) instead. IMHO, voice leading like that tends to sound more "jazzy."Last edited by Cunamara; 04-17-2024 at 01:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I don't see any utility to assigning purposes to specific scales, notes, or other stylistic concepts. Trying to learn and implement rules (which you can call guidelines if it makes you feel better) seems to me to get in the way of learning to express yourself. I watch far too many decent players struggle to use "the right notes" in their solos when they should be letting their ideas flow. To me, the "purposes" of all music and all its elements are just to express and interpret the concepts of composers and performers, to entertain listeners, and to create something wonderful.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
All I mean is that we generally use melodic minor in situations where the underlying harmony is found within the scale. 7#11, tonic minor, altered dominant.
Any scale a person uses is extremely flexible and the raised sixth and seventh are useful in other situations too, but the melodic minor is a first call when the chord is one that is found in the notes of the scale. At which point descending the natural minor becomes moot.
And for what it’s worth … you’re here railing against the “rules” and the way they inhibit creativity, but the reason we’re talking about melodic minor at all is because you said someone’s definition was incorrect and that melodic minor is properly the raised sixth and seventh on the way up and natural minor on the way down. So …. Not sure why my ”rules” (which I never said were rules or guidelines) are presenting so much of a creative problem.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
To be more clear, I should have said that the traditional melodic minor scale differs going up and down. I’m sorry if I misled anyone.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I just don’t want those who are working hard to improve their playing to think that they have to adopt rules (or guidelines or whatever you want to call defined ways of playing) to solo creatively.
From what I’ve seen and heard, trying to fit prelearned patterns into solos rarely results in greatness.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Last edited by Mick-7; 04-17-2024 at 02:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by voyage
If you are in the Key of C minor..then the C minor is the Aeolian mode NOT the Ionian mode..of the relative key Eb Major-which is the Ionian mode
thus..F then is the Dorian mode in relation to this key structure.
Also I think your using the word transpose wrong..your just moving the melody notes up a fourth (in the key of C minor) to F minor..NOT to a new KEY of F minor.
See if adjusting your modes helps the problem
Sonny S. -- Les Paul Player
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