Dorian b5 and Mixolydian b9 scales. Why not?

[GuyBoden]

In the 1990's, I would play notes from a 'Dorian b5' or 'Mixolydian b9' scale over a minor iiV.

(Yes, just altering one note of the scales that I already knew very well.)

Later, I found that these scales were known as the 2nd and 5th modes of the Harmonic Major scale.

Harmonic Major 2nd mode
Dorian b5 over a Dm7b5
D-E-F-G-Ab-B-C

Harmonic Major 5th mode
Mixolydian b9 over a G7b9
G-Ab-B-C-D-E-F

I've been playing these scales today over a minor iiV, and, if I'm selective with the note choices, musically they work very well, if a bit vanilla.

I'm wondering why are they are not taught very often?

[pamosmusic]

I think probably because the major 3 is in there. So for Dm7b5 and G7 they both contain the E.

Thats just not a common sound over the minor ii V.

I transcribed a bit of Kreisberg on Night and Day and he kind of uses it … though he avoids the E natural over the actual ii-V for the most part anyway

[GuyBoden]

I think probably because the major 3 is in there. So for Dm7b5 and G7 they both contain the E.

Thats just not a common sound over the minor ii V.

I transcribed a bit of Kreisberg on Night and Day and he kind of uses it … though he avoids the E natural over the actual ii-V for the most part anyway

Yes, it's about using your ears, which is my approach nowadays.

But, in the 1980's-90's I was obsessed about scales.

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm a fan of weird flatted note scales. I like the subtle dim chromaticism.

[Mick-7]

I think probably because the major 3 is in there. So for Dm7b5 and G7 they both contain the E. That's just not a common sound over the minor ii V.

I think you mean that the natural 9th is not commonly played over the altered m7 chord, i.e., m7b5, because as you suggested, it is common over the m7 chord (Dorian and Aeolian modes).

This is also an answer to Guy Boden's question: scales that contain the natural 9th are not recommended for the m7b5 chord, but there is a Harmonic Major scale that contains the b9th, i.e., the one built on the flat 9th of the m7b5 chord, e.g., Eb Harmonic Major over Dm7b5/G7alt (b9/#9/b13).

[pamosmusic]

I think you mean that the natural 9th is not commonly played over the altered m7 chord, i.e., m7b5, because as you suggested, it is common over the m7 chord (Dorian and Aeolian modes).

This is exactly what I said, no?

[wolflen]

In the 1990's, I would play notes from a 'Dorian b5' or 'Mixolydian b9' scale over a minor iiV.

(Yes, just altering one note of the scales that I already knew very well.)

Later, I found that these scales were known as the 2nd and 5th modes of the Harmonic Major scale.

I've been playing these scales today over a minor iiV, and, if I'm selective with the note choices, musically they work very well, if a bit vanilla.

I'm wondering why are they are not taught very often?

to me this is "Ben Monder" thinking..alter any existing scale and it may become an oblique sounding scale that may work in many ways.

I think Monder has a flat 2 lydian that he plays in one of his vids. I experiment with it over altered dominants and mixed with diminished scales..nice and crunchy

[Mick-7]

This is exactly what I said, no?

It seemed unclear, you said: "That's just not a common sound (the nat. 9th) over the minor ii V." - Insert the word "altered" (ii-V) and your statement is accurate.

[pamosmusic]

It seemed unclear, you said: "That's just not a common sound (the nat. 9th) over the minor ii V." - Insert the word "altered" (ii-V) and your statement is accurate.

I said minor ii V … which generally means m7b5 to dominant, unless otherwise specified.

Unless something major changed very very recently.

[Mick-7]

I think Monder has a flat 2 lydian that he plays in one of his vids. I experiment with it over altered dominants and mixed with diminished scales..nice and crunchy

Nothing new under the sun, that's the South Indian scale named Marwa That: G-Ab-B-C#-D-E-F#

[Mick-7]

I said minor ii V … which generally means m7b5 to dominant, unless otherwise specified.

Unless something major changed very very recently.

Ah, o.k., I missed the "minor" distinction you made, I don't usually think of chord functions in terms of their parent scale.

[rpjazzguitar]

Isn't it 7 out of the 8 notes in a diminished scale?

I think I use it, but come to it from thinking G7b9 scale -- and recognizing that the C is an eyebrow raising note (back to my theory about hexatonics). And, in a 7b9 situation, the #9 is likely to sound good -- and if you use it, you're back to the 8 notes of the diminished scale.

So maybe it's not commonly alluded to because the Bb is such a good note that you might as well think diminished?

[pamosmusic]

Isn't it 7 out of the 8 notes in a diminished scale?

I think I use it, but come to it from thinking G7b9 scale -- and recognizing that the C is an eyebrow raising note (back to my theory about hexatonics). And, in a 7b9 situation, the #9 is likely to sound good -- and if you use it, you're back to the 8 notes of the diminished scale.

So maybe it's not commonly alluded to because the Bb is such a good note that you might as well think diminished?

That's a good point too. Most of the time when I think 13b9, I think of symmetrical diminished ... or just dominant off the 6 (so E7 vocabulary over G7).

[pamosmusic]

Ah, o.k., I missed the "minor" distinction you made, I don't usually think of chord functions in terms of their parent scale.

Ah gotcha ... there's a bit of a discussion on this popping up in the most recent posts on this thread:

How to play over Min7b5 (half diminished) chords, Gibson 175, FractalAudio

[wolflen]

Nothing new under the sun, that's the South Indian scale named Marwa That: G-Ab-B-C#-D-E-F#

how in hell do you know that..wait .. I dont want to know..

[Mick-7]

how in hell do you know that..wait .. I dont want to know..

I knew a marimba player who studied at the Ali Akbar Khan School of Music, the three Indian scales I know that don't correspond with any Western scales are:

Marwa That: E-F-G#-A#-B-C#-D#-E
Purvi That: E-F-G#-A#-B-C-D#-E
Todi That: E-F-G-A#-B-C-D#-E

[Jimmy blue note]

I'm wondering why are they are not taught very often?

Because in playing improvised music, or jazz, what is taught is merely a guideline to establish ways to train our ears to find their own ways to interpret the structures of melody (harmony).
During the time I worked with, learned from and played with guitarist Mick Goodrick, he was a big advocate of using chord scale harmony as a way to explore the continuum from diatonic sound to chromatic sound. He was a player who had a broad vocabulary of interchangeable possibilities based on diatonic, melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major, symmetric, synthetic and chromatic systems... but always he emphasized that when you advance from what someone says you should play to what reflects what you like, that's when the music is a personal process.

If it feels right, don't be limited by the scale, use the scale to find the notes that make the music. If you play it with conviction, it's yours. In answer to your question, we're taught rules from people who have their own beliefs about what is proper. We play sounds that we evolve to feel right about. When you discover your own sound, use it. If you had the teacher that taught you about scales as choices, and not rules, consider yourself fortunate and spend your time growing. Make music.

[Christian Miller]

I think probably because the major 3 is in there. So for Dm7b5 and G7 they both contain the E.

Thats just not a common sound over the minor ii V.

I transcribed a bit of Kreisberg on Night and Day and he kind of uses it … though he avoids the E natural over the actual ii-V for the most part anyway

Oh am I going to ACSHUALLY the living bejeezus out of you now.

Am I. Yes! I am that guy and I'm just not sorry.

I refer you to the first II V I - Em9b5 A7b13 Dm9(maj7) to my ears - lead line F#-F-E

Actually major II V into minor is pretttttttyyyy common in pre-nerd era jazz. Obviously there's dear old Charlie Christian on I found a new baby, but also the melody of Donna Lee contains an example.

Not to mention the V13b9-->Im sound beloved by Peter Bernstein.

I did an lenghty vid on this a year ago...

[pamosmusic]

Oh am I going to ACSHUALLY the living bejeezus out of you now.

ACSHUALLY I didn’t say it wasn’t used.

Though I probably should’ve distinguished between that 9 over the iim7b5 and the 13 over the V. The former definitely being more common than the latter.

A lot of the chord scale stuff is teaching the most common sounds, which hopefully is accompanied by teaching the less common too. If I said you have b9 on the V of minor 90% of the time, I’d probably be right and that would make it an excellent starting assumption. But you also wouldn’t bet your life on 90% — so it’s good to point out Out of Nowhere or Billie’s Bounce straight away too.

Also good to keep the stakes on jazz chord extensions lower than “better your life”, I suppose.

Anyway … I hate all the things you stand for, Christian.

[mr. beaumont]

To go back to the original question, "why isn't it taught more often," I think it's simply because a b9 on a dominant chord is probably one of the first extensions a player learns to hear and use, before they ever step out of chord tone/major scale thinking...so why learn a whole new scale for it down the road?

[Christian Miller]

ACSHUALLY I didn’t say it wasn’t used.

Though I probably should’ve distinguished between that 9 over the iim7b5 and the 13 over the V. The former definitely being more common than the latter.

Probably agree (I mean haven't run the numbers lol) - both are quite common though. I mean, depends on the music and the player. Charlie Christian obviously love this sound. Peter Bernstein loves it too. Parker used it more than you might think.

(TBH bearing in mind a ii7 is just a suspension of V7, I'm not sure I even recognise the distinction. It's all V7 to me lol. This comes from the history of the music, the way bop grew out of swing... check out Christian on Honeysuckle rose. It's just V7 in the band for four bars.)

A lot of the chord scale stuff is teaching the most common sounds, which hopefully is accompanied by teaching the less common too.

I think there's a lots of passing unexamined received wisdom tbh.

It's baked into the way music education operates. People get told stuff by people who are really great and have worked this stuff out off their own backs, and repeat it because that person is great.

Fair enough, if you apply info you can play great, it's not about being a musicologist or whatever. But I'm quite curious about stuff. And I think you can find new sounds, or old sounds that have passed out of use.

Oe thing that comes up in Barry land is, "oh you should make the first D7 in rhythm changes a minor II V' and I think - what? Really? Lester Young doesn't do that on Lester Leaps In. Neither did Bird always. Bud does it on Celia, say, so it's obviously a thing that was done sometimes and it sounds great, but it's not The Default Way to Play Bebop Rhythm Changes. Barry would obviously have known this, I doubt he said 'should', but now the things he said in class are getting 'modified in the guts of the living' to quote Auden.

People quote Ethan Iverson at you in the same way, and so on. Ethan's knowledge is vast, much greater than mine, but he still says things I know to be incorrect.

I'd rather take the example of these people as inspiration...

If I said you have b9 on the V of minor 90% of the time, I’d probably be right and that would make it an excellent starting assumption.

I' not even sure it's 90%. Maybe 75-80%. If we are talking about Charlie, I'd say it's 80% the other way lol.

As I say - different players do different things. At least they used to.

But you also wouldn’t bet your life on 90% — so it’s good to point out Out of Nowhere or Billie’s Bounce straight away too.

Oh this a real in the weeds thing in itself. I'm not saying no one from that era ever used a 7b9 there - obviously they did, but the applied VI7 dominant most often took a natural 9th. This obviously shows up in the rep as you say. Another example is East of the Sun. Django tended to opt for the 9 on the VI7 chord when soloing for example. I would even go as far to say that the use of the 7b9 on applied dominants is a big aspect of the bop style (along with the more widespread use of the ii V to dress up V7 chords in the rhythm section.)

Also good to keep the stakes on jazz chord extensions lower than “better your life”, I suppose.

Anyway … I hate all the things you stand for, Christian.

Good.

[pamosmusic]

I' not even sure it's 90%. Maybe 75-80%. If we are talking about Charlie, I'd say it's 80% the other way lol.

As I say - different players do different things. At least they used to.

EDIT: you mean Charlie Christian, in which case, yes.

Oh this a real in the weeds thing in itself. I'm not saying no one from that era ever used a 7b9 there - obviously they did, but the applied VI7 dominant most often took a natural 9th. This obviously shows up in the rep as you say. Another example is East of the Sun. Django tended to opt for the 9 on the VI7 chord when soloing for example. I would even go as far to say that the use of the 7b9 on applied dominants is a big aspect of the bop style (along with the more widespread use of the ii V to dress up V7 chords in the rhythm section)

Yeah probably because it depends a lot on the chord coming after. There is that quite common “ii chord as temporary tonic minor” a la All of Me, which tends to get the V7b9.

Then you’ve got the ii chord as ii chord thing, which has a more ambiguous character going on … the E7 with F# in East of the Sun is right before the Am7-Cm change, which sounds/feels like a variation on IV-iv minor so it’s a bit of a different thing than the All of Me example.

Then again … Out of Nowhere doesn’t fit that pattern.

Its almost like knowing the songs is important, or something.

ANYWAY … you’re the worst.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah probably because it depends a lot on the chord coming after. There is that quite common “ii chord as temporary tonic minor” a la All of Me, which tends to get the V7b9.

I don't mean to be a total a-hole but are you actually saying this based on your actual listening, or what you would expect from theory?

I'm genuinely asking, because I don't know. I haven't transcribed many solos on All of Me. I would tend to play b9 there myself, but who cares what I do?

IIRC Sarah Vaughan sings a major dominant on that one, but I might be misremembering. I can feel a rabbit hole coming on...

[Christian Miller]

Its almost like knowing the songs is important, or something.

There seems to be conception from today's players that you should preserve the overall harmony of the melody + chords the improvising on the song?

Bop era musicians didn't really do this as far as I can tell, unless they were expressly improvising on the melody. They didn't really bake the melody into the chords in this way. I remember Barry instructing us in class not to worry about that stuff when running scales on Cherokee. Parker plays the Ab dominant scale on the Ab7 chord in his solo on Koko for example.

I'd be interested to know where this comes from, I would imagine it to be more of a post 60s concept.

[pamosmusic]

I don't mean to be a total a-hole but are you actually saying this based on your actual listening, or what you would expect from theory?

Melody of the tune, in the case of All of Me. Transcribing but all my transcribing is bebop or later (except Charlie Christian) so you’d know way better than me about anything earlier.

It’s also a chicken or egg thing … like when you put a 7b9 before a ii chord it sounds more like a tonic minor. So is it a 7b9 because they’re tonicizing the ii chord, or does it sound like they’re tonicizing the ii chord because there’s a b9 in the melody. Hellifino.