Alternative to all formal theory considering keys

[AllanAllen]

I’m not sure this is how keys work

Exactly. That’s why there are 12.

[pamosmusic]

Exactly. That’s why there are 12.

Well played.

I tip my hat.

24 tho

[pauln]

Why 24 and not 336 keys?

Major, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor and natural minor and their modes give 12x7 keys.

Why limit it to 336. I have this book full of exotic scales.

Watch the VW clip... scales are not keys, modes are not keys

[AllanAllen]

Watch the VW clip... scales are not keys, modes are not keys

Yeah… that 30 key thing is for nerds.

I’m sticking with 12. I got twelve frets and twelve tones.

[James W]

Ah, but that's the rub. I assume your extra 12 keys would be the minors as apart from the majors.

But you see the problem there. Very few tunes are written in the natural minor. A minor, for example, would almost always have an E7 in it which indicates A harmonic minor. Which in turn implies that the key signature would be one sharp, which is G#.

What we have to ask is why that isn't so, apart from the confusion with the one-sharp key sig for G major. There are no separate key sigs for harmonic minor. I leave the why of it with you but the fact is they're not written that way, the #7 being indicated with an accidental.

So as far as key signatures are concerned, there are 12. And, for some reason, by convention we don't separate key sigs, at least verbally, from 'keys'. So there we are :-)

Sorry, but this is twaddle.

[djg]

[ragman1]

Sorry, but this is twaddle.

Unfortunately all I've described is what's in every book, every curriculum, every website, every musical dictionary and encyclopedia, etc. They teach 12 keys because that's the way it's done.

I'm all for questioning stuff but some things are worth questioning and others aren't.

[James W]

Unfortunately all I've described is what's in every book, every curriculum, every website, every musical dictionary and encyclopedia, etc. They teach 12 keys because that's the way it's done.

I'm all for questioning stuff but some things are worth questioning and others aren't.

LOL.

More twaddle. Please find me a text book where it says we don't separate key signatures from keys. Also, the fact that there are more than one type of minor scale does not mean minor keys don't exist.

If there are only 12 keys, how come there are 24 preludes and fugues in each book of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier?

[djg]

spell the key of Dbmin

[emanresu]

In my language the terms are different.
We have different word for "key" and "key" itself gets used as "whats in the key?" - meaning what sharps or flats
are after the clef. "Clef"s direct dummy translation here is "the key of notes".
English "key's" most direct translation is the "setup of the notes" - it has its own word and "key" is not part of it nor gets referred to.
This word here has always 2 bits of info - the note and the mode. Traditionally major or minor.
The key signatures go up to 7 sharps or flats. Thats 7+7+1(none) = 15 x 2 traditional modes = 30 "keys"

Had to get out, still here. I'm so weak...

[ragman1]

Please find me a text book where it says we don't separate key signatures from keys.

But I never said that. Show me where I said that.

If there are only 12 keys, how come there are 24 preludes and fugues in each book of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier?

Because he wanted to do it that way. How do I know?

Look, the notes of C major and A minor have the same key signature because the notes are exactly the same. Within that structure the scale can be altered with accidentals. A piece can include any number of scales but scales are not keys.

I agree it can be confusing for beginners knowing whether a piece is fundamentally major or minor but that's the nature of the music. Too bad, they have to learn. And usually it's quite clear anyway. Like Autumn Leaves is minor although it starts out major... etc.

[djg]

The key signatures go up to 7 sharps or flats.

says who? again, spell Dbmin.

[ragman1]

In my language the terms are different.

Ah!

[James W]

But I never said that. Show me where I said that.

In the post of yours to which I replied 'sorry but this is twaddle'. You then proceeded to tell me that what you said was in every text book, every curriculum etc.

Look, the notes of C major and A minor have the same key signature because the notes are exactly the same. Within that structure the scale can be altered with accidentals.

The notes are not the same. Just because G sharp does not feature in the key signature of A minor, it doesn't make it any less integral to how it functions in the key.

[djg]

There are not 15 keys. There are 24.

and the same question to you. could you spell out the key of Db minor for me?

[pamosmusic]

and the same question to you. could you spell out the key of Db minor for me?

What are we doing with this question?

Either way. Trick question.

Key isn’t a scale.

The key signature would be the same as Fb major

Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bbb Cb Db

The harmony would use other stuff depending on what you wanted it to sound like. Because a key signature is not a key and music is marginally cooler than that.

This thread is weird.

[pamosmusic]

i'm talking about keys. the question was put how many keys there are. Db minor is as legit a key as A minor. Db minor has 8 flats, so it does not stop at 7 flats. therefore the correct answer can never be 24 keys. the right answer is: there is an infinite amount of keys. it does become less practical but that was not the question.

and Db minor is very much a thing. the tune woody'n you is in Db major and borrows a ii V (Ebm7b5 Ab7alt) from the key of Db minor. if you play night and day in Db maj, the first chord will be Bbbmaj7, again borrowed from Db minor with 8 flats.

No argument here.

But the well-tempered clavier is so called because the equal tempering was pretty new. At which point all the enharmonic equivalents become enharmonic equivalents. So for practical purposes that number was reduced to 12 pitches.

If you’re counting enharmonic equivalents, the number is infinite. If you’re not, the number is 12 major and 12 minor.

Not sure why people are out here arguing about this.

[pamosmusic]

Cue Christian’s entrance to tell me that equal temperament is all equally out of tune and that adjustment of pitches depending on their placement in the harmony is required to properly tune sonorities.

[James W]

If you’re counting enharmonic equivalents, the number is infinite. If you’re not, the number is 12 major and 12 minor.

Exactly.

[ragman1]

In the post of yours to which I replied 'sorry but this is twaddle'. You then proceeded to tell me that what you said was in every text book, every curriculum etc.

I can see this is going to be one of those stupid internet discussions so I'm not going correct it. You should have pasted a quote from me that directly supported your point. Which it would not have done.

The notes are not the same. Just because G sharp does not feature in the key signature of A minor, it doesn't make it any less integral to how it functions in the key.

Again, that's not what I said. Nor is it what I was talking about. The notes of C major and A natural minor are the same. They are then adjusted with the G# accidental to render A harmonic minor.

[pamosmusic]

I can see this is going to be one of those stupid internet discussions so I'm not going correct it. You should have pasted a quote from me that directly supported your point. Which it would not have done.

Classic Ragman.

What we have to ask is why that isn't so, apart from the confusion with the one-sharp key sig for G major. There are no separate key sigs for harmonic minor. I leave the why of it with you but the fact is they're not written that way, the #7 being indicated with an accidental.

So as far as key signatures are concerned, there are 12. And, for some reason, by convention we don't separate key sigs, at least verbally, from 'keys'. So there we are :-)

This is what you said. And as James said, you are not correct.

[ragman1]

It's unwise to embroil yourself in someone else's argument, especially one like this!

[pamosmusic]

It's unwise to embroil yourself in someone else's argument, especially one like this!

At least that’s true.

Then again, that is essentially the entire purpose of an Internet forum.

[James W]

I can see this is going to be one of those stupid internet discussions so I'm not going correct it. You should have pasted a quote from me that directly supported your point. Which it would not have done.

In post 48 you wrote:

And, for some reason, by convention we don't separate key sigs, at least verbally, from 'keys'. So there we are

... which I replied by saying it was twaddle, to which you replied in reply no. 57:

Unfortunately all I've described is what's in every book, every curriculum, every website, every musical dictionary and encyclopedia, etc. They teach 12 keys because that's the way it's done.

... ergo, every textbook, curriculum etc. does not separate key signatures from keys. They also apparently appear not to count major and minor keys as separate things.

I replied:

Please find me a text book where it says we don't separate key signatures from keys. Also, the fact that there are more than one type of minor scale does not mean minor keys don't exist.

... and then in reply no. 61 you claimed that that is not what you said.


And you've done it again:

Again, that's not what I said. Nor is it what I was talking about.

So, please tell me: what the hell ARE you talking about?

[ragman1]

It's funny, I've been doing music for over 60 years. Yesterday morning I had absolutely no difficulty with keys, key sigs, or anything else. Suddenly I'm a numpty.

I don't believe you :-)