Begin Your Ideas, Lines, Phrases, etc. on any Note You Choose.

[James W]

Well, the head's catchy and quite clever over those disparate changes. And no one can knock the accuracy of his recorded soloing, it's formidable. That aside, I think it's the impression one gets trying to play it oneself. It's not as though there's a nice melody to waft through and put some feeling into, it's the thought 'This feels like an exercise'. Many, many people say that.

I mean, it's become famous for being a sort of rite of passage one has to conquer more than a great tune, like you're nobody unless you can zoom through Giant Steps! But apparently Coltrane himself worked on it for a whole year before he recorded it.

How many up-tempo tunes feature nice melodies to waft through and put some feeling into?

Judging something by one's (in)ability to play it is ludicrous. I judge music based on how it sounds, to point out what ought to be the incredibly obvious.

[ragman1]

How many up-tempo tunes feature nice melodies to waft through and put some feeling into?

That's a question I've heard before here. And a lot of people promptly posted YouTubes of fast tunes with really nice melodic solos. I can't remember what they were now but I expect someone will oblige :-)

[Christian Miller]

I don't get the criticism of the tune 'Giant Steps' being exercise-y.

It's fast moving chord changes at a fast tempo. What was he supposed to play over it? Maybe someone (who knows better than Coltrane) can enlighten me. He sounds incredible in any case.

yeah if you transcribe it you can see it’s quite ‘boilerplate’. It’s a lot of
stock language and devices that could be really useful for the student. My guess as well would be the Trane practiced this solo a lot - maybe not fully composed but certainly stitched together from some composed chunks. At least that’s my guess. Tbh I can relate. It’s impressive but not really like where Trane would end up a couple of years later.

[Christian Miller]

How many up-tempo tunes feature nice melodies to waft through and put some feeling into?

Judging something by one's (in)ability to play it is ludicrous. I judge music based on how it sounds, to point out what ought to be the incredibly obvious.

Have you not yet learned that if Ragman can’t do it either it can’t be done, or it’s not worth doing?

[ragman1]

But I can do it. Sorry about that

[Christian Miller]

But I can do it. Sorry about that

<citation needed>

[James W]

yeah if you transcribe it you can see it’s quite ‘boilerplate’. It’s a lot of
stock language and devices that could be really useful for the student. My guess as well would be the Trane practiced this solo a lot - maybe not fully composed but certainly stitched together from some composed chunks. At least that’s my guess.

Sure. I am unsure of whether you think the tune itself sounds exercise-y or the way Trane solos over it? I mean, are you less enamoured of any kind of uptempo tune with fast harmonic rhythm?

It’s impressive but not really like where Trane would end up a couple of years later.

Indeed. But the process of practising those kind of changes certainly informed how he would solo on tunes with far fewer changes, or no changes at all.

[pamosmusic]

Judging something by one's (in)ability to play it is ludicrous.

My judgement of Giant Steps is of course COMPLETELY separate from the fact that I suck miserably at playing Giant Steps.

[pamosmusic]

But I can do it. Sorry about that

I can’t wait.

[ragman1]

I can’t wait.

I know :-)

[pamosmusic]

yeah if you transcribe it you can see it’s quite ‘boilerplate’. It’s a lot of
stock language and devices that could be really useful for the student. My guess as well would be the Trane practiced this solo a lot - maybe not fully composed but certainly stitched together from some composed chunks. At least that’s my guess. Tbh I can relate. It’s impressive but not really like where Trane would end up a couple of years later.

Yeah at one point I transcribed Giant Steps and Mr PC and remember Giant Steps being much much easier to transcribe because of the relatively limited number of melodic patterns.

Couldn’t play it anything close to tempo though. So there’s that.

[Bop Head]

I do think some of Trane’s stuff can be a bit exercisey (Giant Steps a classic example) but I think that’s a small slice of what Trane did. You could start with his ballad playing.

I feel what you are saying is somewhat true of his early career. I am not a HUGE fan of how he played in the Miles quintet. It does sound very pattern-y sometimes like he’s trying stuff out on the stand. Oh it’s a 7#11 chord, so I’ll play this diminished scale pattern I’ve practiced etc. I hear you on the ‘bugle’ thing. For me it’s about his solo work where he came into his maturity as a player.

i really love him with Monk. Match made in heaven.

I also like the stuff he did with Tadd Dameron.

[AllanAllen]

I also like the stuff he did with Tadd Dameron.

I like the album with Duke Ellington.

[pamosmusic]

I like the album with Duke Ellington.

Hard to beat that Sentimental Mood.

[Doctor Jeff]

It doesn't sound exercise-y, to me at least. And it's not sheets of sound - on 'Giant Steps' he plays mostly eighth notes at a fast tempo, if people are going to call eighth notes at 300-odd BPM 'sheets of sounds' you might as well call much of bebop 'sheets of sound'. No, 'sheets of sound' refers to very fast smooth typically scalar ideas, for example on this where Coltrane double-times on a tune with a tempo of around 300 BPM -

Great performance, and Miles is just cooking there!

[James W]

Great performance, and Miles is just cooking there!

Yeah, it's a fantastic album.

[pamosmusic]

It doesn't sound exercise-y, to me at least. And it's not sheets of sound - on 'Giant Steps' he plays mostly eighth notes at a fast tempo, if people are going to call eighth notes at 300-odd BPM 'sheets of sounds' you might as well call much of bebop 'sheets of sound'. No, 'sheets of sound' refers to very fast smooth typically scalar ideas, for example on this where Coltrane double-times on a tune with a tempo of around 300 BPM -

I always think of the super fluid use of odd subdivisions too.

[James W]

I always think of the super fluid use of odd subdivisions too.

Yes! Loads of that with Monk.

[Christian Miller]

Sure. I am unsure of whether you think the tune itself sounds exercise-y or the way Trane solos over it? I mean, are you less enamoured of any kind of uptempo tune with fast harmonic rhythm?

Both really. Although I think it would work quite well as a football chant.

I mean the simplest way of saying it is that it just sounds a bit that way to me. I like what I like etc. but if I must rationalise it…

It might be that GS is just so relentless though and it’s 8th notes in your face over a 16 bar form. It’s hard for me not to hear it as a gauntlet thrown down for other musicians. Fast harmonic rhythm is one thing but GS is not a fast GASB contra-fact where the harmony can be somewhat generalised within the tonality allowing experienced soloist opportunities for development and space even at fast tempos. You are either articulating the changes or not quite doing it. This is not what bop is contrary to popular belief (though nailing very change on a tune is a good exercise?.)

but anyway I’d suggest transcribing the solo. It’s not something I listen to for pleasure.

It’s noticeable that a lot of the faster post modal tunes most often contrasted sections of busy changes with more vamp or modal style sections.

anyway since Trane people have learned to play the tune with more space and melodic freedom. But I don’t hear that in Trane’s performance as stunning as it is.

Indeed. But the process of practising those kind of changes certainly informed how he would solo on tunes with far fewer changes, or no changes at all.

Yes, I see at as a phase. I think he did too.

[GuyBoden]

Nicolas Slonimsky Pattern: 286

[Christian Miller]

Yeah at one point I transcribed Giant Steps and Mr PC and remember Giant Steps being much much easier to transcribe because of the relatively limited number of melodic patterns.

yeah i found he same thing (although I haven’t done mr PC). I kind of got bored after the second chorus tbh.

[pamosmusic]

yeah i found he same thing (although I haven’t done mr PC). I kind of got bored after the second chorus tbh.

I should also add Audacity running at 3/4 speed.

[pamosmusic]

For what it’s worth, I think generally we don’t seem to have much trouble thinking of artists as “evolving.” Miles being a good example of this … But we don’t seem to be able to think of artists as “improving.” I don’t know if Giant Steps was an exercise or not, but it’s his first real shot at the matrix in that way. He got better at it. On But Not For Me, he seems extremely free over those changes.

[GuyBoden]

Nicolas Slonimsky Pattern: 286



This is the embryo of Giant Steps, no?

[grahambop]

If you don’t like playing Giant Steps there are some alternatives, e.g. Have You Met Miss Jones, or Body and Soul with ‘coltrane changes’ in the bridge (even Dexter Gordon used to do it that way).