Begin Your Ideas, Lines, Phrases, etc. on any Note You Choose.

[ragman1]

Apparently this stuff has some fans :-)

[ragman1]

Because it wasn’t a mistake in the first place.

In that case...

you could fix this problem by putting a second “wrong” note in your line.

why call it a problem and a wrong note?

Don't say I called it a problem, I didn't. It's not a problem to me, I put my lines where I want them and they don't require correction.

As for claiming I think like Coltrane, why shouldn't I think like Coltrane? Has he got a monopoly on music?

[grahambop]

This thread premise is a bit like the ‘maj7 arps over dominants’ thread, some of those arps probably start on a weird note but still work.

I think the melodic strength of the phrase is far more important than which note it starts on. Arpeggios are obviously good for this.

[ragman1]

I think the melodic strength of the phrase is far more important than which note it starts on.

Precisely.

[StevenA]

jazz, free improvisation and cacophony

What am I supposed to be reading here? It's a big site with many articles.

Well, the word noise is in the website title?

[ragman1]

I suspect you only read the title but didn't investigate the content!

[pamosmusic]

In that case...

why call it a problem and a wrong note?

Ah I see the confusion here. Quotation marks of that nature generally denote sarcasm in text.

Don't say I called it a problem, I didn't. It's not a problem to me…

erm …

But, if I may bring myself into it a little, it's something I could never do consciously. I know intuitively that deliberately starting a line in the wrong place would almost inevitably result in notes falling in all the wrong places and produce a cacophony, not music.

in other words … “don’t put words in my mouth, even if I said them.”

I put my lines where I want them and they don't require correction.

That, my friend, is a matter of opinion.

As for claiming I think like Coltrane, why shouldn't I think like Coltrane? Has he got a monopoly on music?

Didn’t say you shouldn’t. Just expressing some doubt at the assertion that you do.

[pamosmusic]

Precisely.

Ah, Ragman. Like a babe in the woods on this one.

[ragman1]

What is it, Pete? The drugs, the depression?

If you're going to start an argument at least get it right. Those two quotes of mine don't contradict each other.

Attachment 108222

It's not the first time you've done this. Read things more carefully. Unless you're just trying to have fun, of course, in which case you probably need a better lifestyle.

[pamosmusic]

There he is.

[pamosmusic]

Unless you're just tying to have fun, of course, in which case you probably need a better lifestyle.

Well you’re not wrong here.

Even a stopped clock, etc.

[ragman1]

I know, but ease back a little.

I don't actually like a lot of what Coltrane does, it's like he's playing exercises all the time. I think he practices exercises and uses tunes as a vehicle for them. But I do like Naima, I think that one was heartfelt.

[mr. beaumont]

I know, but ease back a little.

I don't actually like a lot of what Coltrane does, it's like he's playing exercises all the time. I think he practices exercises and uses tunes as a vehicle for them. But I do like Naima, I think that one was heartfelt.

It's fine to have opinions, but dude, you need to do some listening.

[StevenA]

I know, but ease back a little.

I don't actually like a lot of what Coltrane does, it's like he's playing exercises all the time. I think he practices exercises and uses tunes as a vehicle for them. But I do like Naima, I think that one was heartfelt.

I thought the solo on Countdown was a bit harmonically repetitive, but he was playing it at 330 bpm, invented an historic chord change, wrote an album most young sax players went to sleep with, and that album firmly cemented as the #2 greatest jazz album, so there’s that.

[ragman1]

Oh, I'm not knocking his achievements, only saying it's not always my personal cup of tea. That's allowed, isn't it? I think so.

As a matter of fact, there's probably absolutely no one whose music I like carte blanche, it depends entirely on the particular tune, and sometimes on the particular version. I mean, you can definitely keep Wes' GASB stuff with the strings. Urgh!

[pamosmusic]

Oh, I'm not knocking his achievements, only saying it's not always my personal cup of tea. That's allowed, isn't it? I think so.

As a matter of fact, there's probably absolutely no one whose music I like carte blanche, it depends entirely on the particular tune, and sometimes on the particular version. I mean, you can definitely keep Wes' GASB stuff with the strings. Urgh!

Well, having things that aren't you're personal cup of tea is allowed, of course.

And you're allowed to have stronger opinions too ... but making judgements about musical quality or what you think is actually happening musically in a piece is going to get people arguing with you.

For example:

I don't actually like a lot of what Coltrane does, it's like he's playing exercises all the time. I think he practices exercises and uses tunes as a vehicle for them.

[ragman1]

Well, having things that aren't you're personal cup of tea is allowed, of course.

And you're allowed to have stronger opinions too ... but making judgements about musical quality or what you think is actually happening musically in a piece is going to get people arguing with you.

For example:

I don't actually like a lot of what Coltrane does, it's like he's playing exercises all the time. I think he practices exercises and uses tunes as a vehicle for them.

Well, of course when I said 'allowed' I wasn't actually appealing to an authority. It's a figure of speech. There's no authority for opinion or personal taste. When I hear other players playing melodically and the Coltrane solo sounds like a bugle, going up and down arpeggios and sounding mechanical, then I'll say so.

That, then, is not an opinion, it's an observable, or rather audible, fact. So I'm afraid people can argue all they want, I don't care at all. No reason why I should. If they want to behave like they're defending a religion or something, good luck to them.

Obviously I wouldn't keep rubbing it in if I can see they're upset but other than that I'm not interested. They should listen with an unbiased mind, see things as they are, and then there's no argument.

You'll probably going to ask me to post an example of what I'm talking about, which I could very easily, but I'm not going to and I'll tell you why. Because they'll simply post another one where he doesn't do it, and so it goes on. That's a fool's game, like a lot of kids.

Coltrane is not an icon of mine, I don't make icons. It's not my fault if people want to iconicise someone and then get angry when it's criticised. You've heard of people treating jazz like a religion, right? You've heard of the jazz police and all that. None of that interests me, it's stupid and ignorant. But it's up to them, it's their life. And we're only talking about music, for heaven's sake, not world peace or something!

So where are we now?

[Christian Miller]

I do think some of Trane’s stuff can be a bit exercisey (Giant Steps a classic example) but I think that’s a small slice of what Trane did. You could start with his ballad playing.

I feel what you are saying is somewhat true of his early career. I am not a HUGE fan of how he played in the Miles quintet. It does sound very pattern-y sometimes like he’s trying stuff out on the stand. Oh it’s a 7#11 chord, so I’ll play this diminished scale pattern I’ve practiced etc. I hear you on the ‘bugle’ thing. For me it’s about his solo work where he came into his maturity as a player.

i really love him with Monk. Match made in heaven.

[pamosmusic]

I do think some of Trane’s stuff can be a bit exercisey (Giant Steps a classic example) but I think that’s a small slice of what Trane did. You could start with his ballad playing.

My Controversial Jazz Opinion is that Giant Steps is my least favorite track on Giant Steps.

[GuyBoden]

I think it's good to look at the chronological order of recordings that Coltrane made. His playing evolution, different styles (Ballads 1961?), the transformation.

Cookin 1956
Giant Steps 1959
My Fav things 1960
Impressions 1961
A love Supreme 1964
Expression 1967

[James W]

I don't get the criticism of the tune 'Giant Steps' being exercise-y.

It's fast moving chord changes at a fast tempo. What was he supposed to play over it? Maybe someone (who knows better than Coltrane) can enlighten me. He sounds incredible in any case.

[StevenA]

I don't get the criticism of the tune 'Giant Steps' being exercise-y.

Its fast moving chord changes at a fast tempo. What was he supposed to play over it? Maybe someone (who knows better than Coltrane) can enlighten me. He sounds incredible in any case.

Maybe sounding “exercise-y” is exactly what he had in mind, the whole sheets of sound thing. In the Countdown solo, he plays the exact same figure over Db7 every time the chord comes up. Why? Obviously the man had unlimited
harmonic capabilities. I wonder if Giants Seps has been covered as much as it has because the tempo and changes provide the soloist with that very repetitive esthetic?

[James W]

Maybe sounding “exercise-y” is exactly what he had in mind, the whole sheets of sound thing. In the Countdown solo, he plays the exact same figure over Db7 every time the chord comes up. Why? Obviously the man had unlimited
harmonic capabilities. I wonder if Giants Seps has been covered as much as it has because the tempo and changes provide the soloist with that very repetitive esthetic?

It doesn't sound exercise-y, to me at least. And it's not sheets of sound - on 'Giant Steps' he plays mostly eighth notes at a fast tempo, if people are going to call eighth notes at 300-odd BPM 'sheets of sounds' you might as well call much of bebop 'sheets of sound'. No, 'sheets of sound' refers to very fast smooth typically scalar ideas, for example on this where Coltrane double-times on a tune with a tempo of around 300 BPM -

[ragman1]

I do think some of Trane’s stuff can be a bit exercisey (Giant Steps a classic example) but I think that’s a small slice of what Trane did. You could start with his ballad playing.

I feel what you are saying is somewhat true of his early career. I am not a HUGE fan of how he played in the Miles quintet. It does sound very pattern-y sometimes like he’s trying stuff out on the stand. Oh it’s a 7#11 chord, so I’ll play this diminished scale pattern I’ve practiced etc. I hear you on the ‘bugle’ thing. For me it’s about his solo work where he came into his maturity as a player.

i really love him with Monk. Match made in heaven.

That's just it. Not because you're more or less agreeing with me (!) but because it's true. Overall, it's probably not particular solos he's famous for but his innovative drive.

[ragman1]

I don't get the criticism of the tune 'Giant Steps' being exercise-y.

Well, the head's catchy and quite clever over those disparate changes. And no one can knock the speed and accuracy of his recorded soloing, it's formidable. That aside, I think it's the impression one gets trying to play it oneself. It's not as though there's a nice melody to waft through and put some feeling into, it's the thought 'This feels like an exercise'. Many, many people say that.

I mean, it's become famous for being a sort of rite of passage one has to conquer more than a great tune, like you're nobody unless you can zoom through Giant Steps! But apparently Coltrane himself worked on it for a whole year before he recorded it.