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Folks on this forum seem quite divided of the worth of practicing scales and modes. Let's face it, it can take years to learn every single type of scale or mode in every key and every position, yet it will not enable anyone to play Jazz. After all, if you study all the great jazz solos, one seldom finds a diatonic scale run of an octave or more, so getting good at playing scales will not help you.
So why the emphasis? Is it a way selling "Jazz Education"? Books, Teachers, Institutions etc all need a codified methodology, and CST seems a big part of that.
And then you have the Jazz pragmatists who tell you that arps and passing notes along with licks gleaned from your own transcriptions is the proven method for learning Jazz, as this is how most of the greats got on.
But does it have to be so black and white? Personally I feel that scales are of equal importance to arps, in fact, they are the cornerstone of all music theory. You drew up a scale before you harmonized each note in order to understand why we have the chords we have in given keys right? And if you only knew your arps and chords and filled in between chord tones "by ear", then how will you train the ear to hear, for example, that filling between the 5th and 7th against a minor chord the difference b/n f and f#? If the context implies dorian, then it's imperative that you practice dorian scales to "pre hear" the f# as well as acquiring the muscle memory to play it automatically when required.
But scales/modes create problems being the 7 note creatures they are (the maj/min types anyway). I mean, try c-b-a-g-f-e-d against Cmaj 7. The down beats are c-a-f-d. It may be fine for modal or modern, but for learning the basic skill of outlining changes it is actually counter productive, as is randomly noodling in and around the scale, it's just too hit and miss.
However, by inserting one passing note, one turns a diatonic scale into a bebop scale, which means as an 8 note scale, starting on any 4 chord tones will always yield a chord tone on a down beat, even if doubling back. For ii-V-I you can play mixo bebop (add #7 to G mixo) for ii-V, and C maj bebop (add #5 to C maj) for the I chord. Basically just dithering b/n a C major scale with a #4 (for the ii-V) and C maj with #5 (for I). It's all about starting on a chord tone each time you shift chords (treat the ii and V as just V as is customary).
OK, this is just one of many devices to master, but it means you can actually use the scales you know in a real improv as the notes now intersect with the chord tones on the all important down beats. Unless you're kinda new to jazz improv, the above will sound quite obvious, but my whole point is that it is anything but obvious to the beginner! Just look at the countless newbie type question regarding scales on this forum alone!
Which brings me to my question to the forum, why is it that these bebop types of scales are not emphasized early in the scale regime? Just adding one little note here and there makes the scales useable right away, connects them to arps in a meaningful way, and creates good chromatic habits which can serve as an excellent grounding for the many more adventurous chromatics yet to be mastered. It adds some horizontal to your verticals....Last edited by princeplanet; 05-23-2010 at 01:57 PM.
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05-23-2010 01:40 PM
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I think they don't start them earlier because most "good" teachers want you to learn where they came from-the basics. There's lots of "get brilliant quick" books around, but without learning the very basics it's tough to see how you can study and understand theory.
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05-23-2010, 02:37 PM #3jeffstocksmusic GuestI think they are, at least for people learning the traditional jazz language. Didn't David Baker literally write the book on how to play bop back in the 70's, all based around these scales? Seems the Baker books are pretty standard text for learning the bop language (from a book, anyway). Abersold lists them in his scale directory too, which has to be decades old.why is it that these bebop types of scales are not emphasized early in the scale regime?
I know I started in his books in the 90's when I was learning jazz, learning how to group notes based on starting on a scale tone or not, etc. I am sure I am not unique.
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i won't make any friends by saying this, but the bebop scales, IMHO, are one of the biggest hullabaloo nonsense terms forced down young jazz guitarist throats. It's a friggin' scale with a passing tone.
one hour of transcribing any good jazz solo will show you how a good player can insert any chromatic passing note he wants on an off beat in order to get a strong chord tone on the downbeat.
the whole concept of the bebop scales seems to lead to "running changes"--which i could stand to hear a lot less of. If a player is concerned about how they can run one scale 8 beats to every bar they encounter, they've got bigger problems.
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Ha! Well, they'd have even bigger problems if they were running 7 note scales against 4 beats! Look, I'm talking here about starting out against changes. No one expects that you'll only use these ideas, or even at all in performance. But as a way to drill mixed usage of diatonics and passing tones, one could do worse. But, please, if you know of better ways to practice for this, without the vagueness of merely suggesting to "add your own passing notes between chord tones", then please share this knowledge. Some specific exercises would be cool....
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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If you "Run" a bebop scale as 8th notes then aren't you going to (pardon the pun )run out of options very quickly.Surely rhythmic variation gives the player more ideas.Plus I heard a very respected guitarist put chord tones off strong beats and it didn't really make a blind bit of difference.What did was the rhythm varriations.Plus I thought that theory explains what improvisors play and not a book of rules to play by.
sorry for the basic question
Cheers Tom
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see, this is where i advocate the chord tone approach--arpeggios.
there's no disconnect then--you don't have to treat the changes and the scales as seperate entities. The question is not then, play this over this, it's simply, "play this." To me this is so beneficial to beginners, who--especially if they come from a rock or country background--that lead and rhythm are seperate entities. I say you either play the guitar or you don't.
so ideally you've done the legwork, you know the chords of the tune in several areas of the neck, and you know where the fun extensions to those chords lie.
it becomes nearly a matter of connecting the dots then, with nothing else to memorize or drill. To me, that's the easiest way for a beginner to get started-- a few months of really concentrating on chords and voicings, and then off to the races.
i don't understand what's vague about adding passing notes-- you have 12 notes at your disposal. Some are cool to land on, any other can be used as a stepping stone to get where you're headed. If you think of those "fretlight" guitars that came out in the late 80's, imagine each chord change changing the pattern of little red dots--those are the "safe" notes, and anywhere unlit can be used to approach a satisfying resolution. If you really know chords and voicings, that's essentially what happens eery time the chord changes...
this is how i teach. once you can do that, you can feel free to learn any damn scale the books tell you are important (i think, for jazz, you need two scales total--the major scale and the melodic minor, maybe harmonic minor if you want to play the gypsy stuff) but i also think you can get pretty far on knowing your chords, your arpeggios, and some clever ways to superimpose them.
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i have a slightly different take.
yes improvisers use chromatics however they please. Charlie Christian was doing that before be-bop got fully underway.
and yes, David Baker has several volumes written on playing bebop and references these scales with many useful exercises and patterns.
these scales were discovered through transcription of Parker's and probably a few other's solos. seems to me we shouldn't preach transcribing and then ask the student to toss out everything they observed and learned. whats the point?
i believe that these are not emphasized as much now, because be-bop itself is not the emphasis now.
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I'm about to become even less popular. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
PP, How is this thread any different from the one you started last week on Dorian Bebop scales?
Have we not ridden this particular horse to death?
It appears to me that you are in need of someone to validate the approach you are taking.
If you choose to ignore the advice given to you by older, more experienced, better educated players, then here is what you need to do: Look into the mirror, deep into your eyes and say to yourself "I'm doing the right thing."
If you insist on ignoring the advice given to you, then stop asking for advice.
If you want "specific exercises" then libraries, bookstores, music stores and the Internet are chock full of them. Go find them.
Regards,
monk
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+100 Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Some great advice here.
Rather than learn loads of modes it's so much more useful to take say a major scale or an arpeggio and learn what all the notes that arn't "within" the chord sound like. When you learn all the possible 'outside' tones' and how to apply them I really can't see the need for more than 1 or 2 modes...
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Hang on, aren't I the one becoming unpopular! Originally Posted by monk
To be sure, yes, this is indeed a related subject to my question regarding the various ways to construct and utilise the "bebop" scales, and am I looking for validation? sure, that's the M.O for many of my posts, or indeed my reason for lurking, after all, how many Jazz autodidacts do you know that don't have their insecurities? Yes I have noted your sagely advice and have it duly filed under "Sagely Advice", and a sincere thankyou for sharing (no, really), but I'm still interested in other opinions. I wish someone like David Baker could get on here and speak from his experience, y'know?
Surely, your's is not the only advice out there regarding this matter..... or is it?.....
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NO!!! Mine is absolutely not the only advice. There's Mr. Beaumont, JohnW400, BigDaddyLovehandles, Derek and others. If there any experienced players with opposing views here I have missed them.
There are 2 types of music: Tonal & Modal. I am & have been talking about tonal music (music with chord changes). Modes are useful for playing modal music such as So What, Impressions & Oye Como Va. Although it's easier IMO to play tonally over modal music than to play modally over tonal music.
As I said in another post, there are no secrets. The information is here and clear. There is a proven way that people have learned to play for almost 100 years. It's also the fastest way to get results.
Mr. B, JohnW, BigDaddy, myself and others have handed you the Keys to the Kingdom and yet you have have chosen to ignore that advice again & again.
If what you are doing is yielding the results that you desire, there will be no need to seek outside approval. The results will speak for themself.
I have been down the road that you're on. I tried to make scales & modes work for jazz. They didn't.
When I was at GIT, one of my fellow students asked Howard Roberts for advice. He said that everytime he took a solo it sounded like scales. HR asked what he practiced the most. The guy said "scales". HR replied "Perhaps you need to start practicing something else".
There is a quote that is attributed to Albert Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting to get different results."
Respectfully,
monk
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When I practice them in isolation they sound like scales, but when mixed with other material they don't. Using sequences, double backs, changing from one chromatic group to another for an oncoming chord, there are so many ways to use this idea. Infact, I started thinking about all this after I studied Rollins and Stitt solos! Sure, they're doing a million other things, but you can't always analyze all that they do in terms of chord tone /passing tone, sometimes they are playing "scales" with passing tones! You say transcribe and learn the lessons therein, and I do, but maybe some of us interpret what we hear differently (as opposed to wrongly)?
Besides, I mainly use arps and variations of pentatonics with my improvs, I feel like I need more vertical ideas, unless you have the imagination of a Wes Montgomery, strictly chord tone/passing tone can be boring and predictable too, no?
Oh, and go easy on the put downs, it's enough to give a bloke a complex.....
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I will be looking forward with anticipation to your posts of personal growth & success.
Regards,
monkLast edited by monk; 05-24-2010 at 01:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Hang on, aren't I the one becoming unpopular! To be sure, yes, this is indeed a related subject to my question regarding the various ways to construct and utilise the "bebop" scales, and am I looking for validation? sure, that's the M.O for many of my posts, or indeed my reason for lurking, after all, how many Jazz autodidacts do you know that don't have their insecurities? Yes I have noted your sagely advice and have it duly filed under "Sagely Advice", and a sincere thankyou for sharing (no, really), but I'm still interested in other opinions. I wish someone like David Baker could get on here and speak from his experience, y'know?
Surely, your's is not the only advice out there regarding this matter..... or is it?.....
you can get some good info from the internet and other players, but don't rely soley on it. its often too surface oriented and lacking in depth.
regarding David Baker. one should note that he wrote 4 books on jazz patterns for improv. scales and modes played up and down are a very small part of them. just a starting point. its the patterns man.
RE: Bebop scales. his bebop books introduce the scales and then quickly turn to patterns - as mentioned above - out the wazoo. darn few of these are purely scalar.
summary: scales and modes give you a basic framework for facility. the hard work lies elsewhere. maybe that's why people get stuck on scales, or perhaps its the traditional/classical influence.
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Be-Bop scales?
IMHO they don't exist. They were made up by people like David Baker and Jamey Abersol to sell books.
Like most people here have said, It's a scale with a chromatic passing tone. Nothing more.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
When I practice them in isolation they sound like scales, but when mixed with other material they don't. Using sequences, double backs, changing from one chromatic group to another for an oncoming chord, there are so many ways to use this idea. Infact, I started thinking about all this after I studied Rollins and Stitt solos! Sure, they're doing a million other things, but you can't always analyze all that they do in terms of chord tone /passing tone, sometimes they are playing "scales" with passing tones! You say transcribe and learn the lessons therein, and I do, but maybe some of us interpret what we hear differently (as opposed to wrongly)?
Besides, I mainly use arps and variations of pentatonics with my improvs, I feel like I need more vertical ideas, unless you have the imagination of a Wes Montgomery, strictly chord tone/passing tone can be boring and predictable too, no?
Oh, and go easy on the put downs, it's enough to give a bloke a complex.....
PP, after reading all your posts on this topic, I have a strong recommendation for you. I studied via streaming vid for a year with Tony DeCaprio, and have his book. I would highly recommend you check out his posted lessons from years of writing for JJG (they are free) and if you like the way he thinks about this topic, a) email him, he is very approachable, and b) buy his book. It is an excellent tool for getting to where you are talking about going imo. Good luck
http://www.tonydecaprio.com/Last edited by derek; 05-24-2010 at 11:03 AM.
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Thanks, I do like his ideas! Will check the lessons out in more detail. Originally Posted by derek
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Of course Baker's patterns are where the scales turn into music, but my point is that it's much easier to play his patterns or your own if the scales are already under the fingers. Sure it's just one extra note, but the fingerings need much practice just to commit to muscle memory. Even just dithering b/n adding the #4 and #5 requires practice of each forms in all positions til it's 2nd nature. Not so you can play long scales in an improv, but so you can confidently get around your patterns and inventions based on these "bebop" scales. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Early in their learning, people practice diatonic scales/modes, they may as well practice the "bebop" versions if they're into bop based styles. Familiarity with these helps you produce your own flowing lines, even if you seldom play more than 4 notes in one direction. I don't understand how this could be a bad idea....
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PP,just a thought from a jazz novice.If you play an altered type of scale because you like the sound,good, but by doing so don't you run the risk of never playing certain notes over certain chords.Therefore lines will lack colour,surely it is easier to learn fewer scales,but connect more sounds to your ears and fingers.
Cheers Tom
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i dont disagree. just dont get stuck on one too long before rolling up your sleeves and working hard on the other. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Good point, but as I use other chromatic techniques (chrom approaches, encircling etc) I still use passing notes other than #4 or #5 (ionian that is). Let's face it, you can't master every way of doing everything, at some point you have to choose your weapons, and try to master their usage. These choices and the mastery will constitute one's style, right? Originally Posted by oilywrag
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It's not the scales. It's what you do with them.
Do you have to practice scales? IMO, probably. Can you do it too much? Yes.
There's good advice in this thread that centers around being practical.
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Actually, thats another question I have for the forum, which I may start a new thread with, ie: When practicing a new concept, do you stop practicing other things for a few days so the new idea "takes" better? Or not? Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Personally, I have verified for my self the "21 day" rule where I read once that if you did something every day (min half hour) for 21 days, then this new information will be deep seated in your long term (muscle?) memory. Something to do with programming the cerebellum, the part of the base of the brain that is connected to the spinal/nervous system and therefore a centre for
automatic/reflex movement.
My problem is that I worry if I try too many concurrent new ideas, that they may compete for my brain power, and I consequently learn nothing. But I have a suspicion that I may be wrong....
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