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Or is it a way to organize emergent elements in solos that involves the use of an additional note. A note that doesn't exist in the major scale. In other words are we really talking about an eight note scale like the bebop scale or Barry Harris sixth diminished scales instead of two separate scales (major and melodic minor)?
That appears to be the case if we look at the three most common uses of the Melodic Minor scale in jazz:
- Tonic Minor: Common scale choices are Melodic Minor and Dorian but in reality it's neither. The actual scale that's used in solos is the 8 note scale that is Dorian + the leading note.
- Half Diminished: The common scale choices are Locrian and Locrian #9 (I prefer natural 9 but my keyboard doesn't have the "natural" notation character). Again the actual scale used in solos has 8 notes that has both the b9 and natural 9. You can have both these notes in one line.
- Altered Dominant: The common scale choices are the Altered Scale and tritone Dominant scale. The difference is again one note Lydian dominant or dominant (from the point of view of the tritone), but again it's an added note rather than being an exclusive choice.
So, is it better to view these note choices as one eight note scale rather than two distinct scales? Moreover this seems to apply to both solos and moving chord voicings used in comping.
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01-04-2024 11:29 AM
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Not sure there’s an answer to this.
There aren’t a lot of big one octave or more scale runs in jazz lines, and when they’re there they usually use an added eighth note because of the rhythmic problems of a seven note scale.
So when you see a four or five note melodic minor fragment, is it a fragment of melodic minor or a fragment of your composite thing? Not really a useful answer to that question.
I usually think of “scales” as their harmonic implications. And 7#11 in particular is a common sound in jazz. As is the tonic minor with natural 6 and 7.
So my answer would be Yes. And I don’t think the addition of passing notes would really affect the answer if the harmonies pop up there.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?
That's like asking whether having wings on a plane is really a thing in flying. You could say that, yes :-)
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It was certainly a thing in Lennie Tristano’s teaching.
You can hear melodic minors a lot in jazz. One common usage was on chord VI7 or VII7 because you would just flat the 3 of the key. Stephane Grapelli does this on Limehouse blues for example.
As how he was conceptualising it - no idea. Just the blues I guess?
see also the bridge of Conception - Db melodic minor on C7alt
Otoh we can hear that Blue Mitchell consistently uses melodic minor on the m(maj7) chords of Nica’s Dream. djg says he was purely an ear player. From 2:24
So what does that mean?Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-04-2024 at 01:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Some of those are passing notes.
lots would also be CESH.
What’s left over would be a sort of shifting harmony thing. That’s pretty common with a tonic minor and with a dominant chord, though I’m not convinced it is with the 7#11.
Either way … you’re talking about either two scales that shift back and forth implying two different harmonies, or one scale that can be used to imply either. Thats interesting as a thought process but for an end result it’s a distinction without a difference, I think.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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This occurred to me when I was studying Pat Martino lines. His lines can be seen as coming from Dorian and the leading note (union of Melodic Minor and Dorian if you will) and the lines work very well in all the contexts I described in the OP.
So the practical point is when working on building lines over tunes or developing vocabulary over these chords in general. For example if I'm building lines over a dominant I have a tendency to wear my dominant scale hat or altered scale hat but this morning I used this combined view and it was very liberating. The same applies to tonic minor. It's much simpler to think this eight note scale as the source instead of just sticking with the melodic minor sound.
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The difference is again one note
The difference between a C and a CM7 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C6 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C#o is one note!
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There is a nuance in what I'm saying that's hard to clarify. I'm not saying that the melodic minor sound doesn't exist. But those distinctive intervals (the augmented in particular) exist in the eight note view. The question is does the MM distinctive note exist to the exclusion of the other note in actual lines.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
If you are talking about melodic minor as a concept we enter philosophical territory. If players play what we can label as that sound without their thinking of that label
does that mean they played it?
NFI
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Then: This one note can make a huge difference. Dm7 to Dm6 is a hidden II-V for example ...
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Last edited by Tal_175; 01-05-2024 at 12:27 PM.
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Tal, you're making problems where none exist. I know it's the New Year but that's no excuse :-)
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
If I’m building lines over a tonic minor chord, I might use melodic minor. I might use it with a passing note, I might use a line cliche, I might use Dorian with or without passing notes.
What is the importance of the line building distinction you’re trying to make?
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As a side note regarding melodic minor on the b9 of a dominant/altered scale:
There is always this discussion if the altered scale should be considered separate from melodic minor. I saw a video recently by a young British sax player who analyzed Solos by Dexter and Cannonball and said that they were using minor language on the b9 of a dominant for altered sounds (Can't find the link ATM). I experimented with this and I have to say it is true (at least for my taste): If a line sounds good in Ab minor it will create a nice altered sound on a G7. It will sound much better and more logical than if you were connecting notes of the altered scale arbitrarily (which might lead to the same result by random of course). As I said: matter of my blues based taste. Try it out.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
If you don’t and think they’re stupid, you could always just work on tuning it out. Again … it’s the new year. Maybe that’s a goal for you?
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
It might be all right to explain to a beginner that the melodic minor, or 'jazz minor', is a major scale with the root sharpened. It might help him remember and work it out but ultimately it's merely confusing and he'll doubtless discover that. For practiced musicians the melodic minor is a scale to itself with a dedicated use.
Why make it more complex than that?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
who wants to take this one?
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
if the question is ‘could you play jazz perfectly well without using the melodic minor as a a distinct seven note pitch set?’ then I would say yes. Barry Harris for example mentioned melodic minor but it wasn’t a central part of his teaching, as he usually opted for m6 dim.
If the question is ‘can we identify the melodic minor as a distinct seven note pitch set in some classic jazz recordings? (presumably prior to the jazz school era)’ the answer is again yes.
If the question is ‘were some people conceptualising lines in terms of melodic minor during the golden age of bop?’ the answer is, I think, yes. Not everyone; but Peter Ind studied with Tristano in the late 40s and states in his book this was an element of his teaching at that point. (Tbf this was a long time in the past when Ind was writing.)
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
That's interesting as a thought process but for an end result it’s a distinction without a difference, I think.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
The point that often gets missed in theory books is that you don’t have to stick to the melodic minor for this to work.
when 2 Chets meet ...
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