Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[Tal_175]

Or is it a way to organize emergent elements in solos that involves the use of an additional note. A note that doesn't exist in the major scale. In other words are we really talking about an eight note scale like the bebop scale or Barry Harris sixth diminished scales instead of two separate scales (major and melodic minor)?

That appears to be the case if we look at the three most common uses of the Melodic Minor scale in jazz:

- Tonic Minor: Common scale choices are Melodic Minor and Dorian but in reality it's neither. The actual scale that's used in solos is the 8 note scale that is Dorian + the leading note.

- Half Diminished: The common scale choices are Locrian and Locrian #9 (I prefer natural 9 but my keyboard doesn't have the "natural" notation character). Again the actual scale used in solos has 8 notes that has both the b9 and natural 9. You can have both these notes in one line.

- Altered Dominant: The common scale choices are the Altered Scale and tritone Dominant scale. The difference is again one note Lydian dominant or dominant (from the point of view of the tritone), but again it's an added note rather than being an exclusive choice.

So, is it better to view these note choices as one eight note scale rather than two distinct scales? Moreover this seems to apply to both solos and moving chord voicings used in comping.

[pamosmusic]

Not sure there’s an answer to this.

There aren’t a lot of big one octave or more scale runs in jazz lines, and when they’re there they usually use an added eighth note because of the rhythmic problems of a seven note scale.

So when you see a four or five note melodic minor fragment, is it a fragment of melodic minor or a fragment of your composite thing? Not really a useful answer to that question.

I usually think of “scales” as their harmonic implications. And 7#11 in particular is a common sound in jazz. As is the tonic minor with natural 6 and 7.

So my answer would be Yes. And I don’t think the addition of passing notes would really affect the answer if the harmonies pop up there.

[Tal_175]

Not sure there’s an answer to this.

There aren’t a lot of big one octave or more scale runs in jazz lines, and when they’re there they usually use an added eighth note because of the rhythmic problems of a seven note scale.

So when you see a four or five note melodic minor fragment, is it a fragment of melodic minor or a fragment of your composite thing? Not really a useful answer to that question.

I usually think of “scales” as their harmonic implications. And 7#11 in particular is a common sound in jazz. As is the tonic minor with natural 6 and 7.

So my answer would be Yes. And I don’t think the addition of passing notes would really affect the answer if the harmonies pop up there.

OK just to clarify, I don't mean this eight note scale as a major scale plus a passing note or as a eight note continuous run lick. I mean it as a source of line building over their respective chords. For example over a tonic minor you can use both the 7th and the leading note with dorian to create lines (not necessarily as a passing note). Many tonic minor lines actually contain both notes as if to come from an eight note scale.

[ragman1]

Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

That's like asking whether having wings on a plane is really a thing in flying. You could say that, yes :-)

[Christian Miller]

It was certainly a thing in Lennie Tristano’s teaching.

You can hear melodic minors a lot in jazz. One common usage was on chord VI7 or VII7 because you would just flat the 3 of the key. Stephane Grapelli does this on Limehouse blues for example.

As how he was conceptualising it - no idea. Just the blues I guess?

see also the bridge of Conception - Db melodic minor on C7alt

Otoh we can hear that Blue Mitchell consistently uses melodic minor on the m(maj7) chords of Nica’s Dream. djg says he was purely an ear player. From 2:24

So what does that mean?

[pamosmusic]

OK just to clarify, I don't mean this eight note scale as a major scale plus a passing note or as a eight note continuous run lick. I mean it as a source of line building over their respective chords. For example over a tonic minor you can use both the 7th and the leading note with dorian to create lines (not necessarily as a passing note). Many tonic minor lines actually contain both notes as if to come from an eight note scale.

Sure.

Some of those are passing notes.
lots would also be CESH.

What’s left over would be a sort of shifting harmony thing. That’s pretty common with a tonic minor and with a dominant chord, though I’m not convinced it is with the 7#11.

Either way … you’re talking about either two scales that shift back and forth implying two different harmonies, or one scale that can be used to imply either. Thats interesting as a thought process but for an end result it’s a distinction without a difference, I think.

[ragman1]

You can hear melodic minors a lot in jazz.

You don't say

[Tal_175]

This occurred to me when I was studying Pat Martino lines. His lines can be seen as coming from Dorian and the leading note (union of Melodic Minor and Dorian if you will) and the lines work very well in all the contexts I described in the OP.

So the practical point is when working on building lines over tunes or developing vocabulary over these chords in general. For example if I'm building lines over a dominant I have a tendency to wear my dominant scale hat or altered scale hat but this morning I used this combined view and it was very liberating. The same applies to tonic minor. It's much simpler to think this eight note scale as the source instead of just sticking with the melodic minor sound.

[ragman1]

The difference is again one note

SO WHAT?

The difference between a C and a CM7 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C6 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C#o is one note!

[Tal_175]

There is a nuance in what I'm saying that's hard to clarify. I'm not saying that the melodic minor sound doesn't exist. But those distinctive intervals (the augmented in particular) exist in the eight note view. The question is does the MM distinctive note exist to the exclusion of the other note in actual lines.

[Christian Miller]

There is a nuance in what I'm saying that's hard to clarify. I'm not saying that the melodic minor sound doesn't exist. But those distinctive intervals (the augmented in particular) exist in the eight note view. The question is does the MM mdistinctive note exist to the exclusion of the other note in actual lines.

Yeah I mean listen to the solos I posted. There’s no extra notes there. Blue Mitchell plays a straight run all the way up through Bb melodic minor as the opening gesture of his solo.

If you are talking about melodic minor as a concept we enter philosophical territory. If players play what we can label as that sound without their thinking of that label
does that mean they played it?

NFI

[Bop Head]

SO WHAT?

The difference between a C and a CM7 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C6 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C#o is one note!

First of all it would be nice if people would make correct quotes so everybody can follow where the quote comes from without having to use the browser's search function. Thank you all.

Then: This one note can make a huge difference. Dm7 to Dm6 is a hidden II-V for example ...

[Tal_175]

SO WHAT?

The difference between a C and a CM7 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C6 is one note. The difference between a C7 and a C#o is one note!

Ragman I find that things have to be explained to you differently, if I have the patience I'll do it, lol. But for now I'll just say, yes in the business of music half note interval is a big distance (sometimes the furthest away two notes can be is half notes) but not in every case. Your point is a generalization fallacy. There many interchangeable neighbouring note choices used in jazz in same contexts (like major and lydian, dorian and MM or dominant and dominant b9 etc.)

[ragman1]

Tal, you're making problems where none exist. I know it's the New Year but that's no excuse :-)

[Tal_175]

Yeah I mean listen to the solos I posted. There’s no extra notes there. Blue Mitchell plays a straight run all the way up through Bb melodic minor as the opening gesture of his solo.

If you are talking about melodic minor as a concept we enter philosophical territory. If players play what we can label as that sound without their thinking of that label
does that mean they played it?

NFI

I don't mean it as a philosophical point. Maybe I should edit the OP and clarify this. I mean it strictly as how these scales are used for line building. A compartmentalized two scale view vs an eight note scale view.

[Tal_175]

Tal, you're making problems where none exist. I know it's the New Year but that's no excuse :-)

The forum would be boring place without problems. Somebody has to do the dirty job.

[pamosmusic]

I don't mean it as a philosophical point. Maybe I should edit the OP and clarify this. I mean it strictly as how these scales are used for line building. A compartmentalized two scale view vs an eight note scale view.

I’m not sure why using them for line building makes any difference.

If I’m building lines over a tonic minor chord, I might use melodic minor. I might use it with a passing note, I might use a line cliche, I might use Dorian with or without passing notes.

What is the importance of the line building distinction you’re trying to make?

[Bop Head]

As a side note regarding melodic minor on the b9 of a dominant/altered scale:

There is always this discussion if the altered scale should be considered separate from melodic minor. I saw a video recently by a young British sax player who analyzed Solos by Dexter and Cannonball and said that they were using minor language on the b9 of a dominant for altered sounds (Can't find the link ATM). I experimented with this and I have to say it is true (at least for my taste): If a line sounds good in Ab minor it will create a nice altered sound on a G7. It will sound much better and more logical than if you were connecting notes of the altered scale arbitrarily (which might lead to the same result by random of course). As I said: matter of my blues based taste. Try it out.

[pamosmusic]

Tal, you're making problems where none exist. I know it's the New Year but that's no excuse :-)

I honestly am not sure what Tal is talking about here but I like weird theoretical conundrums.

If you don’t and think they’re stupid, you could always just work on tuning it out. Again … it’s the new year. Maybe that’s a goal for you?

[ragman1]

The forum would be boring place without problems. Somebody has to do the dirty job.

There are real problems and invented problems. This is an invented one.

It might be all right to explain to a beginner that the melodic minor, or 'jazz minor', is a major scale with the root sharpened. It might help him remember and work it out but ultimately it's merely confusing and he'll doubtless discover that. For practiced musicians the melodic minor is a scale to itself with a dedicated use.

Why make it more complex than that?

[pamosmusic]

It might be all right to explain to a beginner that the melodic minor, or 'jazz minor', is a major scale with the root sharpened

Uh oh.

who wants to take this one?

[Christian Miller]

I don't mean it as a philosophical point. Maybe I should edit the OP and clarify this. I mean it strictly as how these scales are used for line building. A compartmentalized two scale view vs an eight note scale view.

Well my shortish answer would be that it depends on the players particular approach.

if the question is ‘could you play jazz perfectly well without using the melodic minor as a a distinct seven note pitch set?’ then I would say yes. Barry Harris for example mentioned melodic minor but it wasn’t a central part of his teaching, as he usually opted for m6 dim.

If the question is ‘can we identify the melodic minor as a distinct seven note pitch set in some classic jazz recordings? (presumably prior to the jazz school era)’ the answer is again yes.

If the question is ‘were some people conceptualising lines in terms of melodic minor during the golden age of bop?’ the answer is, I think, yes. Not everyone; but Peter Ind studied with Tristano in the late 40s and states in his book this was an element of his teaching at that point. (Tbf this was a long time in the past when Ind was writing.)

[ragman1]

I honestly am not sure what Tal is talking about here but I like weird theoretical conundrums.

But it's not a conundrum. Unless you're incredibly bored.

That's interesting as a thought process but for an end result it’s a distinction without a difference, I think.

Correct, that's the point.

[Bop Head]

There are real problems and invented problems. This is an invented one.

It might be all right to explain to a beginner that the melodic minor, or 'jazz minor', is a major scale with the root sharpened. It might help him remember and work it out but ultimately it's merely confusing and he'll doubtless discover that. For practiced musicians the melodic minor is a scale to itself with a dedicated use.

Why make it more complex than that?

It can be helpful to see it as a major scale with the third flatted if you work out how to place it on the fretboard. Similar to deriving dominant seventh chord drop 2 voicings (and others) from diminished voicings you can derive your melodic minor scales from the major scales you know.

[Christian Miller]

As a side note regarding melodic minor on the b9 of a dominant/altered scale:

There is always this discussion if the altered scale should be considered separate from melodic minor. I saw a video recently by a young British sax player who analyzed Solos by Dexter and Cannonball and said that they were using minor language on the b9 of a dominant for altered sounds (Can't find the link ATM). I experimented with this and I have to say it is true (at least for my taste): If a line sounds good in Ab minor it will create a nice altered sound on a G7. It will sound much better and more logical than if you were connecting notes of the altered scale arbitrarily (which might lead to the same result by random of course). As I said: matter of my blues based taste. Try it out.

Barry would call this ‘tritones minor’

The point that often gets missed in theory books is that you don’t have to stick to the melodic minor for this to work.