Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[ragman1]

Oh, no, now I'm going to have to go through all my dreadful recordings to see if I ever played that phrase. It's not fair!

[Christian Miller]

TBH a scale, such as a melodic minor, is a great phrase of itself. Here's the Blue Mitchell line for those who couldn't be bothered to listen lol. Sorry about the cringe TAB, this was for a video I was making. There's a time stamp and everything.


Two great phrases based heavily on step wise scales. Notice the rhythm of the second phrase (second line.) Rhythm makes things hip.

[Christian Miller]

Looking at that old document I saw these which might also pertain to the OP



Here's the Bird line on the Moose the Mooche

Actually he uses bigger chords than I remember - Am9(maj7) and Dm9(maj7). Interesting!


Similar to the shout chorus on A train, esp the second one.

[Christian Miller]

I paid good money to be taught badly, I'll have you know.

I mean this is meant as a joke - but... we can all be taking lessons from Wes and Bird for FREE.

[Christian Miller]

Or Allan.

You know Allan might be pertinent here. We know we thought very much in terms of scales because that's what he often discussed in seminars, and explained his system, but what I've realised from paying close attention is that his music is suffused with an intuitive command of bop devices - chromatics, enclosures, rhythm devices. To judge from what he has said about his upbringing the records of Benny Goodman and Django were practically mother's milk, later bop.

I think a lot of that generation of musician were like that. Standards gigs - for dining and dancing and so on - were very common so familiarity with that repertoire could be taken as read even for the middle level of players. Nowadays of course, we're playing top 40 gigs and in soul covers acts, so our familiarity with that music on a day to day level is a lot less. For guitarists the lingua franca is basically dad rock, so the world of Tin Pan Alley songs seems utterly alien, let alone straight ahead jazz.

(I was really lucky to get in on the Swing dance/Vintage boom while it was a thing as it made me very familiar with these songs and those musical elements in their basic form.)

Just a theory.

[James W]

Or Allan.

You know Allan might be pertinent here. We know we thought very much in terms of scales because that's what he often discussed in seminars, and explained his system, but what I've realised from paying close attention is that his music is suffused with an intuitive command of bop devices - chromatics, enclosures, rhythm devices. To judge from what he has said about his upbringing the records of Benny Goodman and Django were practically mother's milk, later bop.

I seem to recall him saying he learnt to play Charlie Christian solos by ear...

[Christian Miller]

I seem to recall him saying he learnt to play Charlie Christian solos by ear...

I believe so. I can absolutely believe it.

One interesting link for my ears is Jimmy Raney. There's a lot of similarity between Jimmy's eighth note articulation and Allan's. Allan name checked his solo on 'So in Love' as making a big impression. Allan also shared Jimmy's 'across the barline' rhythmic imagination.

[James W]

Here we are:

So I tried to learn Charlie Christian solos. I absorbed them quite quickly.

Interview with Allan Holdsworth (steveadelson.com)

[Christian Miller]

Here we are:



Interview with Allan Holdsworth (steveadelson.com)

The wording is quite interesting there don't you think?

[James W]

The wording is quite interesting there don't you think?

Yeah, sort of implies he got them in his head, without necessarily playing them note-for-note verbatim.

At least that's how I read it...

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, sort of implies he got them in his head, without necessarily playing them note-for-note verbatim.

At least that's how I read it...

yeah it’s possible he means he didn’t play them exactly, but got enough info out of them for his purposes

[Reg]

Hi Reg, so let's look at it harmonically. One way that MM can be used harmonically to bring out the blue note is the modal interchange of the 6th chord if I understand some of your earlier posts correctly.

For example, let's say we are in C major. Modal interchange of A MM over A Aeolian is a modal expansion of the C major harmony. With the A MM diatonic chords, we get F# and G#. So F# is the blue note you are referring to in this context, right?

We get this blue note if we modal interchange with A Dorian as well (since A Dorian also has an F#). So, if one were to use the Dorian bebop scale harmonically as a modal interchange device, one would default to A Dorian (in the case of C major tonality) and use the blue note but also have to option to throw in the G# in some of the chords (C maj and Caug would both become available for example). Would that be too complex, or too ambiguous? Not sure, I haven't explored this scale this way. What do you think?

Hey Tal.... so what you posted could work, but I'm very simple...

On a Cmaj7 as in your example.... I would take the Harmonically implied V7 chord. G7 and Modal Interchange to G7alt, from 7th degree of MM. Which harmonically frames the common Blue Notes... Bb (b3 or #9) and Eb, the b7.

The basic way this works.... I never just think or hear a single chord. I hear and play or imply Chord Patterns.

That Cmaj7.... becomes a Tonal Target. I then, depending on tune and context....create a Chord Pattern that Harmonically implies... that Tonal Target.

It's that simple... You know lots of tunes, most have implied Tonality, and when you make analysis they have Tonal Targets. So I create Chord Patterns that imply those tonal targets.

I have comping chops... which allows me to expand single chords into chord patterns. Again I generally play Simple.... Most of the common chord patterns I use... imply basic... Tonic, Dominant and Sub-Dominant tonalities and patterns.

I just plug and play depending on context... or my mood LOL.

Melodic Minor is just another tool to melodically organize Harmonic relationships. Another tool to expand your use of Modal Interchange, expand simple use of Chordal Subs and musically organize use of Chord Patterns.

Maybe think.... your playing or hearing a melodic line over a Tune or section of a tune... even just a phrase.

Take that Line and voice it with chords. I use MM to help harmonically organize those chords.

Generally when you go through with this process... you'll need to have Targets, the most important notes of your melodic line. And then you'll generally also musically organize the voicing of those notes with Harmonic Function.... basic shit.... Tonic, Dom. and Sub-Dom

Like with that Cmaj. I said above I would start with simple I V or Tonic - Dominant thing. I could then expand that simple Functional Pattern... ( it's like sub-dividing)

Most like to just think or say Rhythm... good rhythm make almost anything work. But not really, what make rhythm work is Harmony... Functional Harmonic Chord Patterns.

And yes... I get it.... way too much to think about or use....but that's why I always push getting one's chops together.
Again I play very simple... and use very simple concepts.

Many seem to work on complicated musical concepts and spend way to much time verbally developing those concepts...
Personally... simple musical concepts played well ... always work much easier and make performing simple and .... Fun.

If you want more examples... let me know.

[PMB]

I believe so. I can absolutely believe it.

One interesting link for my ears is Jimmy Raney. There's a lot of similarity between Jimmy's eighth note articulation and Allan's. Allan name checked his solo on 'So in Love' as making a big impression. Allan also shared Jimmy's 'across the barline' rhythmic imagination.

Definitely. Jimmy Raney's European tour of 1954 made a huge impression on so many post-war European guitarists.

It's most obvious in the playing of bop-influenced French, Dutch and Belgian guitarists such as Sacha Distel, Wim Overgaauw and especially Rene Thomas. Jimmy Gourley, an American acolyte of Jimmy Raney's, paved the way when he settled in Paris a few years before Raney's arrival. Gourley's bass player in his later years, Dominique Lemerle passed that tradition onto his son, Felix Lemerle who is currently making an impression in the US. Overgaauw taught Jesse van Ruller, Martijn van Iterson and Maarten van der Grinten and they all have echoes of Raney in their articulation as well.

[CliffR]

Supposing the melodic minor does in fact exist, and I play E melodic minor over an Eb7, which as I understand it is a common usage. If I then want to harmonise the scale to create some triads, should the Eb take the minor or major third? It seems the minor is two scale degrees away, but I'm playing over Eb7, so.... ?

[pamosmusic]

Supposing the melodic minor does in fact exist, and I play E melodic minor over an Eb7, which as I understand it is a common usage. If I then want to harmonise the scale to create some triads, should the Eb take the minor or major third? It seems the minor is two scale degrees away, but I'm playing over Eb7, so.... ?

Diminished.

Another way of saying you’re playing the melodic minor a half step up is saying you’re playing the seventh mode of the scale.

minor, minor, augmented, major, major, diminished, *diminished*

Playing major is also neat, but would give you a different sound. Major triads successive minor thirds away from the root will sound like a diminished scale sound (13b9)

[CliffR]

Thanks Peter!

[pamosmusic]

I generally really like the ambiguous triad-pairy sorts of sounds, so I like that diminished triad. But the most common choices are probably … bii, III+, bV, bVI

For seventh chords, the same are fairly common, but also half diminished off the bvii, which Christian will chime in shortly to tell us is better described as the tritones minor.

[CliffR]

Hmm. Now I'm confused. How can we have bVi and bvii chords? I thought the melodic minor had major 6th and 7th intervals.

[Christian Miller]

I generally really like the ambiguous triad-pairy sorts of sounds, so I like that diminished triad. But the most common choices are probably … bii, III+, bV, bVI

For seventh chords, the same are fairly common, but also half diminished off the bvii, which Christian will chime in shortly to tell us is better described as the tritones minor.

I don’t know that I will. it’s another way of describing it. There’s others on forum for whom everything has to be through the Barry prism.

FWIW I often think from bVII

[Christian Miller]

Hmm. Now I'm confused. How can we have bVi and bvii chords? I thought the melodic minor had major 6th and 7th intervals.

He’s taking it from the root of the dominant, so the altered scale. (bII melodic minor from that perspective.)

[CliffR]

Okay, thanks. I'm going to have a little lie down and come back and read this again later .

[Christian Miller]

Note names can sometimes be less ambiguous

Ab melodic minor on G7

For example, triads
G7 —> Abm, Bbm, C+, Db, Eb, Fo, Go

[pamosmusic]

He’s taking it from the root of the dominant, so the altered scale. (bII melodic minor from that perspective.)

Oh yeah. Sorry that’s a short hand people use for those kinds of things. Like you can play a minor triad from the third degree of a major seven chord.

III … Roman numeral three for the position of the triad. Capital letters for the quality.

[pamosmusic]

I don’t know that I will. it’s another way of describing it. There’s others on forum for whom everything has to be through the Barry prism.

FWIW I often think from bVII

I don’t think you’re a Barry Harris hard-liner. I just think you’re occasionally a theory troll. Only occasionally.

[CliffR]

Oh yeah. Sorry that’s a short hand people use for those kinds of things. Like you can play a minor triad from the third degree of a major seven chord.

III … Roman numeral three for the position of the triad. Capital letters for the quality.

Oh yeah, I get that. But I\d assumed you were counting from the root of the melodic minor, not the root of the dominant half a step down. It all makes sense now, including the tritone's minor bit.