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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
For example over D minor you can play an F major line (making it a D dorian) or an F augmented line (making it a D MM), to me that's different than treating that C# as a passing note.
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01-04-2024 01:33 PM
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So, in this context melodic minor is a chord scale that's applied in certain ways over certain chords.
To rephrase the chords in question (more can be added):
- Tonic minor: MM with the same root vs Dorian
- Half diminished: MM from the 6th vs Dorian from the 6th (ie Locrian)
- Altered : MM from the 7th vs Dorian starting from b9 (ie tritone dominant)
But if MM is a collection of notes in these contexts why not consider the collection to be the union of the scales (ie one added note).
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
More playing, less thinking!
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I mean it’s not that crazy a thing is it? Here’s a lute piece from the early 18th century… melodic minor ascending form was often used descending…
and as far as the added note thing goes, music back generally had an even number of eighth notes in a bar too. You don’t have add chromatics to make a scale come out right.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Two ten dollar bills are admittedly not the same thing as one twenty dollar bill. Having one as opposed to the other is actually very helpful in some situations, but their value is the same.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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I think the thing that distinguishes Barry’s eight note scale from yours is that it’s actually harmonized in thirds and gives a distinctive harmony vs the melodic minor (the alternating m6 and diminished chords). Yours is choosing a different seventh in a different situation, or different ninth or whatever the case may be.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
If you were asking about Trane, for instance, you’d find the diminished scale is more frequently employed on dominant chords than for many other players of that era. It really depends.
for example that Nica’s dream recording has three soloists with different approaches to this type of situation.
the answers as always, are out there on the records.
otoh if you find the eight note understanding works for and helps you, go for it. I don’t see why our opinions are important.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
I think you're wriggling, Tal :-)
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
I think that would help distinguish what you’re talking about from what I’m thinking you’re talking about.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I mean it clearly is an eight note thing sometimes, the melody of Chelsea Bridge is a good one.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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I would think of Wes as one of the players who mixes up the melodic minor and Dorian as a matter of course. Maybe he got it from Charlie Christian.
His solo on Nica’s dream is a good one for this. I like to use that tune in this context because it has clear m(maj7) sounds in the tune. It’s interesting that a few of the players continue to use b7 here including Junior Cook on the original recording and Wes.
ooh that reminds me, early Dorian use, the melody on the bridge of Douce Ambiance (Django) Notice that these swing era players all emphasised the 6 so the b7/7 was more about passing tones. Also six appeal (Charlie christian iirc.)
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
Check out what he is doing on the first two chords of Limehouse (again remember Stephane G was melodic minoring it on this tune back in the mid 30s)
no idea what Tranes up to here haha
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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There is an interesting thing in 'Round Midnight, meas. 3 that I would have like to ask Barry Harris about. In the original Monk changes there is no II-V (Im7 to IV7) but a static Im6. The melody is a Im7 arpeggio up root to seventh resolving to the sixth. That would be "dorian". (The line repeats up a fourth in meas. 5 this time over a II-V, IVm7 to bVII7.)
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
but melodic minor does pop up throughout the history. I could probably find some in pops if I looked hard enough…
The more I transcribe the less I feel can make sweeping statements (and you know how much I LOVE those haha). I can make helpful simplifications and prioritise things for students, especially if I know they are interested in a specific style or player.
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Werner Pöhlert's "Grundlagenharmonik" ("Basic Harmony") taught me 30 years ago that in jazz minor is 1-2-b3-4-5 plus the whole chromatic between 5 and 1. But that is maybe a bit arbitrary.
EDIT: That would be Christian's "mixed minors". Which is probably a good name.
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