Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[Tal_175]

What makes a musical concept a "thing" in a musical style has two prerequisites:
- A related group of recurring patterns are observed in the common practice of that style.
- That musical concept is the most reasonable abstraction of these recurring patterns. Therefor the abstraction is a useful educational and analytical tool.

So it's a pretty bold claim to say that a concept is a thing in a style. It can't just be supported by a couple of cherry picked examples.

[CliffR]

Oh … and obvious caveat based on the Out of Nowhere example.

Use the chords you hear in conjunction with the melody.

Out of nowhere has an Eb7 or Bbm6 there and has an A natural in the melody. So that Eb7 would be an Eb7#11 … what the melody gives you or the context of the tune gives you would trump any rule or intuition you might have.

Very good point, and something I'd overlooked.

[lawson-stone]

I don’t know that I will. it’s another way of describing it. There’s others on forum for whom everything has to be through the Barry prism.

FWIW I often think from bVII

Wow. This just opens up a bunch of really nice possibilities. This is the kind of thing that keeps me coming back to this forum.

[Reg]

What makes a musical concept a "thing" in a musical style has two prerequisites:
- A related group of recurring patterns are observed in the common practice of that style.
- That musical concept is the most reasonable abstraction of these recurring patterns. Therefor the abstraction is a useful educational and analytical tool.

So it's a pretty bold claim to say that a concept is a thing in a style. It can't just be supported by a couple of cherry picked examples.

Yea Tal... I would also say that what makes... it a thing.... is... the "musical concept" is the reference for musical organization of the example. I remember when I was taught to add the #9 to V7 chords when using HM as reference... then eventually moved on the MM. Which didn't make use of HM wrong etc... it just helped make the choice of "musical concept" easier to use. More choices. You didn't need to force choices LOL.

[ragman1]

As for the Eb7 … Christian might have some input for this one too … I don’t have any hard and fast rule but usually when a dominant chord doesn’t resolve in the usual direction, the 7 or 7 sharp 11 sound works best, rather than altered or the flat 9 sort of thing or whatever. If a dominant chord is resolving to the ii iii or vi position (like the E7 or A7 in All of Me) I usually start with a 7b9 sort of thing or an altered kind of vibe** If it resolves to IV or V I usually start with 9 and 13. If it resolves to I you get the kitchen sink. But those aren’t rules unless someone else has heard them that way (?) … they’re just starting places I jump to from the way stuff has sounded best in my experience.

Oh, my lord, what are we squabbling about? Exactly. I could have written that. In fact, I did the other day somewhere.

*** I don’t usually think of them as altered and harmonic minor, because I usually think about stuff in the terms you described earlier with triads and chords and stuff, but that is the end result

Me too, believe it or not :-)

I was just thinking about All Blues and that D7 - Eb7/D7 bit. What would you use over that? Just out of curiosity. It's a very interesting couple of bars.

[Tal_175]

Yea Tal... I would also say that what makes... it a thing.... is... the "musical concept" is the reference for musical organization of the example. I remember when I was taught to add the #9 to V7 chords when using HM as reference... then eventually moved on the MM. Which didn't make use of HM wrong etc... it just helped make the choice of "musical concept" easier to use. More choices. You didn't need to force choices LOL.

Yeah, that makes sense. A concept can be a jumping off point or provide a loose skeleton for ideas that sound good to a player.

[pamosmusic]

Oh, my lord, what are we squabbling about? Exactly. I could have written that. In fact, I did the other day somewhere.

You are the only one squabbling.

[ragman1]

You are the only one squabbling.

That was a bit childish. What about the rest of the post, especially the All Blues thing?

(I've just checked back in my old files for Out Of Nowhere. There are 21 audios and four videos. I just played lydian (Bb mel) over the Eb7 x 2. At one point I tried to be smart with stranger sounds but the Bbm was best).

[pamosmusic]

That was a bit childish. What about the rest of the post, especially the All Blues thing?

(I've just checked back in my old files for Out Of Nowhere. There are 21 audios and four videos. I just played lydian (Bb mel) over the Eb7 x 2. At one point I tried to be smart with stranger sounds but the Bbm was best).

Oh forgive me, but I didn’t think it was a serious question since, as you so astutely pointed out, I’m just conning myself and others.

Anyway … last four of All Blues. I’d probably start off playing blues stuff.

Miles leans hard on the flat 3 on both chords and plays a the D Eb F Gb Ab Bb pitch collection over both chords. Though oddly enough, rarely the Gb\F# over the D7

[ragman1]

Miles leans hard on the flat 3 on both chords and plays a the D Eb F Gb Ab Bb pitch collection over both chords. Though oddly enough, rarely the Gb\F# over the D7

Absolutely, although Martino's stuff takes the biscuit. I'm pretty fond of this one.

[ragman1]

I liked your vid a lot but I notice your sub licks (very nice) were 1 bar long. So presumably over Dm - G7 - CM7 you'd still play Dm in the Dm bar?

[Christian Miller]

Oh … and obvious caveat based on the Out of Nowhere example.

Use the chords you hear in conjunction with the melody.

Out of nowhere has an Eb7 or Bbm6 there and has an A natural in the melody. So that Eb7 would be an Eb7#11 … what the melody gives you or the context of the tune gives you would trump any rule or intuition you might have.

Tbf bVI7 chord almost always takes a #11

i could talk about this chord A LOT. You may not want me to get started. Is it melodic minor tho? (Not historically, but certainly in modern jazz practice.)

The Eddie Lang tune uses the whole tone tetrachord. Whole tone scale would be a common choice for this era. But if need to look into it more.

Its not the scale Mozart would have run on it (go on ask me haha.)

[pamosmusic]

Tbf bVI7 chord almost always takes a #11

i could talk about this chord A LOT. You may not want me to get started. Is it melodic minor tho? (Not historically.)

Go ahead and start.

I am invested.

While you’re at it what are some other tunes with this chord?

[Christian Miller]

I liked your vid a lot but I notice your sub licks (very nice) were 1 bar long. So presumably over Dm - G7 - CM7 you'd still play Dm in the Dm bar?

id play fmaj7

so fmaj7-f something or other - C

[djg]

Go ahead and start.

I am invested.

While you’re at it what are some other tunes with this chord?

cherokee bar 7

[pamosmusic]

cherokee bar 7

Thats flat seven, no? The back door dominant?

[pamosmusic]

id play fmaj7

so fmaj7-f something or other - C

Oh yeah I have a note on my notes app with a bunch of these written out. That was a cool concept … though I haven’t actually gotten around to practicing it since I watched … so it goes

[ragman1]

Whole tone scale would be a common choice for this era.

I was also going to suggest the WT in my other post above but I thought TMI :-)

[grahambop]

Absolutely, although Martino's stuff takes the biscuit. I'm pretty fond of this one.

Looks like Pat is mostly playing Eb Dorian over the D7 chord, and E dorian over the Eb chord. With some passing notes e.g. between the 4th and the minor 3rd. Those lines are very similar to what’s in the Linear Expressions book, which is good to know (since I have been learning some of those recently!)

[pauln]

I was just thinking about All Blues and that D7 - Eb7/D7 bit. What would you use over that? Just out of curiosity. It's a very interesting couple of bars.

I like All Blues as rootless three note chords. For the long G chord I play up and down the melody using the chords in brackets.

[ G13 G7sus4 Gsus2 Gm6add9 ] ... C9 played like this...

[ x899xx x101010xx x121212xx x131414xx ] ... x787xx

The thing is, I'm playing rootless chords that don't express some extensions of the harmony I'm really thinking (explored when soloing). Since I'm rootless and indicating what I am thinking rather than writing a lead sheet, notice I don't like or use the "Eb7" chord (Eb7#9 is too expected) - I take that as another version of the D7 as if the D was pedaled through (sounds good with or without the bass catching on).

D7b13#9 DMb13b11sus4 D7b13#9 G13

x91010xx x101111xx x91010xx x899xx

[ragman1]

id play fmaj7

so fmaj7-f something or other - C

OK, it was just that you said forget the Dm, the Dm is G7.

[Christian Miller]

Go ahead and start.

I am invested.

While you’re at it what are some other tunes with this chord?

in terms of going from I-bVI7-I

Quite a lot of 1920s and 30s repertoire. off the top of my head:
Lullaby of the Leave (middle 8)
I’m beginning to see the light
Stompin’ at the Decca (Django)
Loads more…

This is a classic New Orleans one

You quite often see this chord popping up in New Orleans stuff as a sub for #ivo7 in the classic Dixie style turnaround. Listen out for bVI in the tuba. It’s quite Rootsy.

Barry harris taught it as what happens when you put the ascending 4’n’back line on top of the descending one
C-E-F-F#-G
C-Bb-A-Ab-G

(He never used the term augmented sixth when I was in class tho.)

This chord is often seen going to V7 as well of course. In that manifestation it’s very often harmonising some variation of the b5-5 blues melody. This is I think a sign of how it’s different in jazz to classical music where the melody usually goes #4-5 (though this was relaxed in c19 I think.)

…. MUCH more to follow (you will regret this.)

[ragman1]

I like All Blues as rootless three note chords. For the long G chord I play up and down the melody using the chords in brackets.

[ G13 G7sus4 Gsus2 Gm6add9 ] ... C9 played like this...

[ x899xx x101010xx x121212xx x131414xx ] ... x787xx

The thing is, I'm playing rootless chords that don't express some extensions of the harmony I'm really thinking (explored when soloing). Since I'm rootless and indicating what I am thinking rather than writing a lead sheet, notice I don't like or use the "Eb7" chord (Eb7#9 is too expected) - I take that as another version of the D7 as if the D was pedaled through (sounds good with or without the bass catching on).

D7b13#9 DMb13b11sus4 D7b13#9 G13

x91010xx x101111xx x91010xx x899xx

Right, although I was really wondering about single notes. But the chords are good too.

[Christian Miller]

OK, it was just that you said forget the Dm, the Dm is G7.

Yeah you could just play Fm all the way or something if you want. Up to you.

[ragman1]

Re. All Blues, I could post this, I suppose. In 2021 did work out about 7 or 8 different ways of doing it and made a short compilation for myself. It's what it is. Some are better than others. The first one is definitely Dm and Ebm blues. It's very short. Luvly quality :-)