A word about the word 'dominant'.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

I visit a lot of YouTube channels, guys talkin' about music, and such.

I hear this, ALL the time. Okay, that's a G dominant 7 chord, or a F dominant 7 sharp 5.

Etc.

now, I wouldn't have ever given this a second thought, but years ago, when I was taking jazz piano lessons ( I took up piano some 24 years ago), my teacher beat this into my head.

To say ' G dominant 7 is redundant. It's G7. It's a seventh chord. Dominant refers to the function. It's redundant to say 'dominant seven chord'.

You don't say E mediant 7 do you? You don't say A submediant 7 do you? You don't say F subdominant 7 do you?
You don't say B leading tone half diminished, do you? You don't say D supertonic minor 7 do you? You don't
even say C tonic major 7 do you?

so why do you say 'G dominant 7? Why do you refer to the seventh chord by it's function? You don't on any of the others?

I know, 'habit'. My crazy Scientology sister (bless her heart, and no, I'm not one) told me this is called 'contagion of aberration'. I'm no fan of L. Ron Hubbard, but I like that one.

Many, if not most, musicians I hear, they refer to the seventh cord by it's function, and that is peculiar. I kinda get it, though. "Dominant' is a color, a feel, one of the three, methinks, major, minor, and dominant (major = happy, minor = sad, dominant =bluesy). Maybe that's why. But i used to think those were a thing, but they really aren't because it requires 4 notes and major and minor do not.

And gosh darn, I never in my life would ever have become annoyed by it until my jazz teacher pointed it out to me. (Don't worry, I got a bone to pick with him about something, which I will cover in another thread).

Okay, rant over, go back to what you were doing

Have a happy new year!

[pamosmusic]

Oof man. This is common knowledge and not an insight or really anything worth ranting over.

1. The proper name is *not* G7, it is G major/minor 7. But that name is very easily confused with G min/maj7 in the jazz/pop context so it isn’t often used.

2. You could just call it G7 but in the sea of major 7, minor 7, min-maj7, diminished 7, and half diminished 7 chords, people are going to ask you for clarification fairly often and you’ll need to say something.

3.

To say ' G dominant 7 is redundant. It's G7. It's a seventh chord. Dominant refers to the function. It's redundant to say 'dominant seven chord'.

That would imply that a dominant 7 chord always occurs in the dominant function. Which it doesn’t. Not that folks reserve the term only for those situations where it does. Still seems worth pointing out.

I have to say. You pick some peculiar things to rant about.

[Christian Miller]

I enjoy the rant energy

The dominant thing comes from two important facts

1) functional harmony theory is stupid (it’s like waaa I don’t want to learn counterpoint I am uwu smol bean.)
2) jazz musicians don’t understand functional theory because they have better things to do.

but for some reason have purloined some of the terminology out of context.

so we can imo forgive dominant meaning ‘major-minor seventh’ chord and focus on the true enemy which is the Mixolydian.

[RLetson]

A sensitivity consultant might question the wording, since "dominant" is associationed with bad-hegemonic/hierarchical systemic structures and might feel threatening to some readers. (My copy now has to pass inspection of an in-house sensitivity reader, so this is close to being not-really-a-joke.)

[AllanAllen]

I dunno, I have a workingman's mentality. Just say dominant seven so everyone knows what your talking about and get to the song.

Who cares about mediant, submediant, subdominant. It's just 6 minutes of Blue Bossa, not filler on a music theory midterm.

In the woodshop I'll often do measurements like 4 inches and one notch after 3/4. I don't care if it's a 32 or a 64, I just know it's one after the 3/4. And guess what, my cuts come out fine. When my wife gets her shelf, she doesn't care how I internalized the measurement, she just cares that it's up, it matches the others and she bring home 10 more plants.

[pcjazz]

Barry used to say it’s called the dominant because it dominates.

[wolflen]

chord names confusing..?? really...aw come on..

when I started to delve into theory and found out about context affecting a chords name and function
and being new to this.. talking to other musicians about chord names became a trigger for high anxiety

I tried to learn more about it listening to guys talk about what they played over chords..what scales..runs.. arps and all

and of course the confusion continued when I learned some chords can have more than one name..and the term function/context
came into focus over and over again.

while Patrick has a minor (no pun) bitch with the term "dominant"

I had a major one with the term "half-diminished"

Well they told me..there are two diminished scales...so I said STOP !!

and Ted Greene came to my rescue.."..you could just name it Minor7b5.."

And there it was..instant clarity..the name itself told me what it was

I didnt have to wonder which half of the diminished scale or WHICH diminished scale

of course my elation was flattened a bit when I discovered the minor7b5 had other names

so along the way bumping into more theory discoveries was far less traumatic

so when I teach a bright eyed "I want to know everything" type I explain the names

and ask..which is easier to understand--half diminished or minor7b5?

and ya know what ALL the kids say...of course you do

[ragman1]

You and your threads! I certainly don't overestimate improvisation, it's bloody difficult. And I can do it.

As for dominants, I use whatever seems right at the time. As long as the guy knows what I mean, which he does 99.9% of the time because it's obvious.

Well, the big thing I have noticed about this word, 'chorus' is that in jazz, it means something different than in rock, pop, folk and country. Also, the word 'verse' means something different to both, as well.

Congratulations, you're catching up!

Here's something useful:

Chorus: One complete cycle of a tune, one time through from top to bottom.

Verse: In many older standard songs, an introductory section, often rubato, that leads up to the 'chorus' or main strain, which is the tune as generally recognized. Jazz players (and fakebooks) usually omit the verse, though singers like to use them.

(This link is not 'forbidden' and I don't know why it says that. Click away, it's quite safe)
403 Forbidden

[pcjazz]

I explain the names

and ask..which is easier to understand--half diminished or minor7b5?

and ya know what ALL the kids say...of course you do

I prefer m6/6, per Monk, via Barry.

[princeplanet]

...
And gosh darn, I never in my life would ever have become annoyed by it until my jazz teacher pointed it out to me. (Don't worry, I got a bone to pick with him about something, which I will cover in another thread).

....

Have a happy new year!

See, now I wanna read about this other bone to pick. Let's see the thread!

[Litterick]

The last time we discussed the diminished at great and painful length, Wolflen observed,

I thank Joe Diorio for this very simple fact:

There are only three diminished scales...C Db D diminished

This is all we need know.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

Oof man. This is common knowledge and not an insight or really anything worth ranting over.

1. The proper name is *not* G7, it is G major/minor 7. But that name is very easily confused with G min/maj7 in the jazz/pop context so it isn’t often used.

2. You could just call it G7 but in the sea of major 7, minor 7, min-maj7, diminished 7, and half diminished 7 chords, people are going to ask you for clarification fairly often and you’ll need to say something.

3.

That would imply that a dominant 7 chord always occurs in the dominant function. Which it doesn’t.

A good reason not to refer to them as 'dominant'.

Not that folks reserve the term only for those situations where it does. Still seems worth pointing out.

I have to say. You pick some peculiar things to rant about.

Actually, in the diatonic chord sequence on a major scale, and I'm talkin' 7th chords, four note chords, the chord on the 5th tone, in the key of C, is G7.

I don't recall calling the chord which functions in the dominant (insofar as four note chords) anything but G7, F7, etc., for some 20 years until about the 80s, I started hearing jazz guys call it G dominant 7, F dominant 7. Maybe they did in the 50s/60s, but I didn't get around much, and none of my teachers (I only had 2 in my early years) none of them said 'dominant 7, either. And so I picked up the lingo, and called it that, 'dominant 7'.. In the 90s, I started learning piano, and my teacher reminded me that 'dominant 7' is redundant. 'dominant' is the function, not the name of the chord, he told me. Okay, you're the teacher, It's G7 from now on and so I went back to how I learned it on guitar, in my formative years.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

chord names confusing..?? really...aw come on..

when I started to delve into theory and found out about context affecting a chords name and function
and being new to this.. talking to other musicians about chord names became a trigger for high anxiety

I tried to learn more about it listening to guys talk about what they played over chords..what scales..runs.. arps and all

and of course the confusion continued when I learned some chords can have more than one name..and the term function/context
came into focus over and over again.

while Patrick has a minor (no pun) bitch with the term "dominant"

I had a major one with the term "half-diminished"

Well they told me..there are two diminished scales...so I said STOP !!

and Ted Greene came to my rescue.."..you could just name it Minor7b5.."

And there it was..instant clarity..the name itself told me what it was

I didnt have to wonder which half of the diminished scale or WHICH diminished scale

of course my elation was flattened a bit when I discovered the minor7b5 had other names

so along the way bumping into more theory discoveries was far less traumatic

so when I teach a bright eyed "I want to know everything" type I explain the names

and ask..which is easier to understand--half diminished or minor7b5?

and ya know what ALL the kids say...of course you do

And why not call a full diminished chord, a minor six flat five?

Thing about music is, there is more than one way to look at things.

[pauln]

G7 uses the "7" to indicate the b7 to distinguish it from the 7 indicated by "maj7". The b7 is also used in minor, half diminished, and augmented sevenths, but indicated in all those as "7". For that matter, the diminished seventh is the bb7, and it is also indicated as "7".

If we were starting from scratch we might like to change this, but it's too late and now we have over a century of Jazz music based on a half dozen different types of "seventh" chord all indicated by "7".

I've always imagined that "dominant seventh" was generally not in reference to the chord's function, but for clarity directly in reference to the 1 3 5 b7 version seventh chord distinguishing it from the other seventh chords.

[Christian Miller]

And why not call a full diminished chord, a minor six flat five?

because that would be an enharmonic atrocity.

not that’s ever stopped jazzers before haha

[pamosmusic]

And why not call a full diminished chord, a minor six flat five?

Thing about music is, there is more than one way to look at things.

Yes but that is somehow a worse way to look at things than all the silly ways we have already.

[supersoul]

I just wish there was a better name than the "minor major 7" chord.

It's a mouthful and it uses too much pencil lead (which isn't really lead, but graphite and clay, but here we are).

[Reg]

Yea... it's usually about ... the context. What is the reference for the terminology. This use to be a Jazz site...LOL

[AllanAllen]

I just wish there was a better name than the "minor major 7" chord.

It's a mouthful and it uses too much pencil lead (which isn't really lead, but graphite and clay, but here we are).

Just use m6, it implies melodic minor which has the natural 7. Bing bang boom.

Speaking of, do you have to use mb6 to imply the flat 6 of harmonic and natural minor? From what I gather a Cm6 is C Eb G A not C Eb G Ab.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

See, now I wanna read about this other bone to pick. Let's see the thread!

I did, princeplanet, in the 'bone to pick with jazz teacher' thread, just for you

Unfortunately, @ragman1 was bored with it.

Sheesh, can't please everyone.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

And it's a "water heater", not a "hot water heater"!!!

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

You and your threads! I certainly don't overestimate improvisation, it's bloody difficult. And I can do it.

As for dominants, I use whatever seems right at the time. As long as the guy knows what I mean, which he does 99.9% of the time because it's obvious.



Congratulations, you're catching up!

Here's something useful:

Chorus: One complete cycle of a tune, one time through from top to bottom.

Verse: In many older standard songs, an introductory section, often rubato, that leads up to the 'chorus' or main strain, which is the tune as generally recognized. Jazz players (and fakebooks) usually omit the verse, though singers like to use them.

(This link is not 'forbidden' and I don't know why it says that. Click away, it's quite safe)
403 Forbidden

Well, my complaint was that the wikipedia entry used the pop/rock definition, but did not mention the original convention which jazz inherited from music theatre, your above definition. This was consistent with my experience with pop/rock musicians.


However, in total agreement with my OP, wiki has now corrected this error.

Refrain - Wikipedia

Interesting you should use that website, the owner was my jazz teacher, the one I had a bone to pick with on the 'bone to pick with jazz teacher' thread, the one that bored you.

[Christian Miller]

This is all legacy stuff. Chord symbols originated in the mid c20 and weren’t standardised until much later. Tunedex and early fake book charts had simple chords and in general only added the 7th to the dominant chord, so that became what 7 meant. The same for the minor 6th chords

Extended major and minor chords weren’t often featured until later, and there’s still a fair degree of non standardisation today, for example in big band and Brazilian charts (and some german charts apparently.)

It would make a lot more sense if the the default option for the 7th chord was major 7th and we then specified alterations like b7, minor and so on, but that’s not the way the system grew up which is according to practicality.

the system was standardised somewhat later, but a lot of these quirks remained nonetheless.

you’ll also of course find some differences in what jazz musicians call chords and what classical musicians call them. A lot of this is down to notation.

A classical musician will need to analyse a French sixth chord for instance from a score where it is recognised by its augmented sixth interval (eg Ab F#)

A jazz musician will simply indicate it as a ‘7#11’ or DOMINANT 7 #11 chord, while it would be understood in classical functional harmony as a chromatically altered predominant chord.

Tbf I think most jazzers would look at an Ab7#11 in C major/minor as a tritone sub of D7 so a type of secondary dominant.

I mentioned cadential 6 4 chords recently on this forum and no one knew what they were … even though they probably play them all the time…

(Luckily none of this stuff actually matters.)

[supersoul]

Just use m6, it implies melodic minor which has the natural 7. Bing bang boom.

I disagree with that, though, because a min/maj7 says nothing about the 6th. It could be a b6 or a natural 6, just depends on the tune.

As an example, Nica's Dream is usually written as Bbm(maj7) | Abm(maj7), and I often hear a Bb harmonic minor over that first chord. The turnaround melody even has the b6 (as well as a b5).

[supersoul]

And it's a "water heater", not a "hot water heater"!!!

and it's not DAT tape, damnit!
Baltimore has a diner called the Double-T diner, but on the sign it's written Double TT diner, and the literalist in me sees TTTT diner.