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Originally Posted by PatrickJazzGuitar
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12-31-2023 09:06 AM
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What?
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
C major 7
A minor 7
G7
See? No need to say 'dominant', which is the function. Or so said my teach,.
For example, the seventh chord on the second degree of the major scale is a minor seventh, the seventh chord built on the fifth is the dominant seventh
(although that is the correct use of dominant in that case)
On the second degree, the function is the super tonic. The chord type, in the key of C could be either a Dm or a Dm7.
So, what my teach explained to me is that you have to be consistent in what you are talking about.
If you are naming 7th chords, then they are (key of c) Cmaj7, Dm7, etc.
If you are referring to function, then its tonic, super tonic, mediant, subdominant, etc
What he told me was to quit referring to a chord type (for example, G7) as it's function, G dominant 7. Technically speaking, he tells me, this is wrong. It's a thing that, in my observation, really didn't start spreading until the late 70s, 80s, etc.
Now, I don't really give a hoot, but since he told me this, it started bothering me. Now, I wish he never mentioned it so I wouldn't have started this thread.
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Originally Posted by humphreysguitar
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
You remember this spiral.
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Originally Posted by PatrickJazzGuitar
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Maybe it’s worth mentioning how rarely I even need to use the word “dominant” ….
1. Making fingering charts for students when the dominant chord type is in immediate proximity to other 7th chord types. In this case I take the OPs point and admit that the term is usually an expedient, even though it bothers me exactly zero.
2. In lots of situations, I prefer to refer to the mixolydian mode as the dominant scale. In which case the term is literally accurate because it is a synonym for the fifth position in a major key. ** And now that I’m thinking about it, that’s usually only when I’m referring to it in the abstract. In specific situations I would usually say something like “the F7 scale.” Though there are situations where that would require some more specificity.
In lessons if a student say plays Cmaj7 instead of C7, I don’t tell them to play the dominant voicing. Instead I usually say something like “I hear B natural but I should be hearing Bb”
In a performance situation, C6, CMaj7, and their derivatives are just “C” and Cmin7, Cmin6, and their derivatives are just “C minor.” C7 and its derivatives are just “C7.” A performer should be able to choose basic extensions based on context without any more prompting than that.
** mode names tend just to complicate things and I get into a modal sort of approach with the dominant chord wayyyyyyy earlier than others because of how early it becomes necessary to talk about playing over changes in a blues. In other contexts, you can usually just refer to chords in terms of their key center (ii-V to C) rather than by their mode names. So calling it the dominant scale means I can avoid the Greek for much much longer.
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Originally Posted by PatrickJazzGuitar
Re “modulating ii Vs” etc - I don’t like the term personally. Whether “secondary dominants” count as modulations is a matter of debate. I would say, no, not always. But I tend to prefer to look at harmony on the sentence rather than word level. It gets clunky otherwise in my opinion because these types of inflection occur so frequently in functional harmony that it seems a good idea to classify them separately to true modulations. (So Body and Soul’s A doesn’t modulate, while the B section does, for example.)
Admittedly this is a grey area
So in this view, Bb Bb7 Eb Ebm6 Bb does not incur a true modulation to Eb, but it does include a secondary dominant.
(In practice it the difference in terminology may not matter much.)
This is not a universally held view. I’ll park it there.
On the second degree, the function is the super tonic. The chord type, in the key of C could be either a Dm or a Dm7.
So, what my teach explained to me is that you have to be consistent in what you are talking about.
If you are naming 7th chords, then they are (key of c) Cmaj7, Dm7, etc.
If you are referring to function, then its tonic, super tonic, mediant, subdominant, etc
What he told me was to quit referring to a chord type (for example, G7) as it's function, G dominant 7. Technically speaking, he tells me, this is wrong. It's a thing that, in my observation, really didn't start spreading until the late 70s, 80s, etc.
Now, I don't really give a hoot, but since he told me this, it started bothering me. Now, I wish he never mentioned it so I wouldn't have started this thread.
you could say major minor seventh, but that’s not the term in general usage in jazz circles. The term in usage is dominant seventh, or dominant ninth, or whatever like it or lump it. Dominant, Altered Dominant, Lydian Dominant etc.
I suppose you could just say the chord symbol. That works, and it’s what I tend to do if only because it’s a lot less longwinded.
Now minor seventh - is that a chord or an interval? ;-)
Terminology’s a mess. And we haven’t even got into the absurdities of melodic mode names yet haha (why is it mixolydian b6 and yet lydian dominant? Arrrrrghhhhhhhhh)Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-01-2024 at 04:45 AM.
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Dominant - The kind of woman I love.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Americans also don't like 13th floors. Often it will go 11, 12, 14, 15. Because... Satan or witches or something. Although there are 13 stripes on the flag to represent the original 13 states, so we also like the number 13.
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Originally Posted by supersoul
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by PatrickJazzGuitar
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Musos don’t like zero though.
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Originally Posted by John A.
George Barnes plays Bach/1966
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