A word about the word 'dominant'.

[Christian Miller]

I disagree with that, though, because a min/maj7 says nothing about the 6th. It could be a b6 or a natural 6, just depends on the tune.

As an example, Nica's Dream is usually written as Bbm(maj7) | Abm(maj7), and I often hear a Bb harmonic minor over that first chord. The turnaround melody even has the b6 (as well as a b5).

I mean people play b7 on that chord too. So long as the melody is strong, notes can clash.

Tbf the b6 is a tenser note on minor than 6… but if you are a good musician you can hear that and use it. (m7b6 chords on the other hand tend to sound like inverted add9s to me…)

the exact way people treat chords depends on the player. Blue Mitchell for example plays out of the melodic minor on the original ND recording, while Junior Cook mixes it up with all the minor scales.

I get a bit annoyed when people make sweeping statements about scales on chords as a result … the reality of music is much more interesting and messy when people use their lugholes.

[AllanAllen]

I disagree with that, though, because a min/maj7 says nothing about the 6th. It could be a b6 or a natural 6, just depends on the tune.

As an example, Nica's Dream is usually written as Bbm(maj7) | Abm(maj7), and I often hear a Bb harmonic minor over that first chord. The turnaround melody even has the b6 (as well as a b5).

That's not what I said. I said if you have a m6 chord (example was given of C Eb G A) you can use a maj7 (C Eb G B) too since if the 6th is major the 7th is also major. You're going the other way using the 7th to define the 6th, and yeah it doesn't work that way. It might not work the way I said it, but you're replying to something I didn't say.

Natural Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Harmonic Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

Melodic Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

[supersoul]

I mean people play b7 on that chord too. So long as the melody is strong, notes can clash.

Tbf the b6 is a tenser note on minor than 6… but if you are a good musician you can hear that and use it. (m7b6 chords on the other hand tend to sound like inverted add9s to me…)

the exact way people treat chords depends on the player. Blue Mitchell for example plays out of the melodic minor on the original ND recording, while Junior Cook mixes it up with all the minor scales.

I get a bit annoyed when people make sweeping statements about scales on chords as a result … the reality of music is much more interesting and messy when people use their lugholes.

The chords... Horace plays Bbmin/maj7 | Abmin/maj7. It actually just sounds like A augmented | G aug.

Which, my point being that you just don't write m6 when it means min(maj7).

[supersoul]

That's not what I said. I said if you have a m6 chord (example was given of C Eb G A) you can use a maj7 (C Eb G B) too since if the 6th is major the 7th is also major. You're going the other way using the 7th to define the 6th, and yeah it doesn't work that way. It might not work the way I said it, but you're replying to something I didn't say.

Natural Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Harmonic Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

Melodic Minor
1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I was just wishing there was a shorter, more eloquent way of saying minor major 7. I thought you said to just write m6 instead.

[AllanAllen]

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I was just wishing there was a shorter, more eloquent way of saying minor major 7. I thought you said to just write m6 instead.

Oh yeah, going back to C. You can say C minor under B (C-/B). My m6 thing was a half serious reply, and definitely not worth this much discussion.

[setemupjoe]

This question regarding the use of the word Dominant for 7th chords and the larger topic of 7th chord nomenclature is one that I've spent time thinking on because I actually teach this to my theory class at MI.

In level 2 theory, students go from thinking in the four triads to extending chords to eight 7th chord structures. (ma7, 7, mi(ma)7, mi7, ma7(#5), 7(#5), mi7(b5), º7)

I always start the class by explaining pretty much what Christian outlined in an earlier post. The triads are legacy names from the time of Philip Rameau. Along with them are also the 7th chord (dominant 7th) and the half diminished chord (ø). These are all terms that predate the 20th century.

If you've had the chance to play early big band gigs, charts from before around 1920 would have banjo parts with no chord symbols and everything written in chord stacks. Usually someone nicely pencilled chord names on these parts over the years. Looking at these parts I sometimes see augmented 6th voicings which no one in modern theory would recognize today.

At some point, I assume musicians started naming 7th chords that were being used in these band arrangements to make reading and discussing chords easier. This was a haphazard affair and for a while there were a myriad variations on nomenclature. This has largely been streamlined but as we all know, there's still variations for many.

The pertinent question about the 7th chord is an interesting one. The 7th chord nomenclature is old and predates the 20th century. It was given a simple 7 because it is the 7th note of the scale when we build a chord from the dominant step of a major scale. 7th names weren't given to the tonic chord for example where we would have to make a differentiation.

Fast forward to the 1920's and people were grappling with how to name the other chords in the major scale using the 7th. C7 would seem intuitive for the tonic chord of the major scale, but that name was already taken, so people differentiated by saying major 7. Hence all 7th chords with major 7ths had to say the word major. All chords with minor 7ths should just use the 7.

The system of naming 7th chords is inconsistent mainly because it originated from pencil scrawlings on music charts and changed from bandstand to bandstand. The word dominant arose I believe mainly to differentiate the chord from its cousin the major 7 chord. I agree the name is unnecessary but unlike the OP, it doesn't keep me up at night.

I would love more information on how chord symbols arose in the 20th century and have gone digging for answers but found little to nothing. Maybe a good doctoral thesis for someone.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

More interesting that you weren't, it would have answered your question!

What question are you referring to?

the entire premise of this thread is based on what he told me regarding the word 'dominant'. Nor does his site answer the question posited to this forum, why does everyone refer to a 7 chord as a 'dominant 7', which, as Dowdell told me, was redundant.

If you look at his chart of chords

403 Forbidden

the 7 chord does not mention 'dominant'.

So, that wasn't a question. I took his point of view on that one.

As for 'chorus', that wasn't a question either, but a bone to pick with pop/rock guys who use it differently.

As for 13 chord, his chart includes both the major 3 and the 11 on a 13 chord. but doesn't answer the question, as a practical matter, would you guys play it as 1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 13,, or 1, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13 ? Because to include the major 3 and the 11 sucks, to my ears, anyway.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

This question regarding the use of the word Dominant for 7th chords and the larger topic of 7th chord nomenclature is one that I've spent time thinking on because I actually teach this to my theory class at MI.

In level 2 theory, students go from thinking in the four triads to extending chords to eight 7th chord structures. (ma7, 7, mi(ma)7, mi7, ma7(#5), 7(#5), mi7(b5), º7)

I always start the class by explaining pretty much what Christian outlined in an earlier post. The triads are legacy names from the time of Philip Rameau. Along with them are also the 7th chord (dominant 7th) and the half diminished chord (ø). These are all terms that predate the 20th century.

If you've had the chance to play early big band gigs, charts from before around 1920 would have banjo parts with no chord symbols and everything written in chord stacks. Usually someone nicely pencilled chord names on these parts over the years. Looking at these parts I sometimes see augmented 6th voicings which no one in modern theory would recognize today.

At some point, I assume musicians started naming 7th chords that were being used in these band arrangements to make reading and discussing chords easier. This was a haphazard affair and for a while there were a myriad variations on nomenclature. This has largely been streamlined but as we all know, there's still variations for many.

The pertinent question about the 7th chord is an interesting one. The 7th chord nomenclature is old and predates the 20th century. It was given a simple 7 because it is the 7th note of the scale when we build a chord from the dominant step of a major scale. 7th names weren't given to the tonic chord for example where we would have to make a differentiation.

Fast forward to the 1920's and people were grappling with how to name the other chords in the major scale using the 7th. C7 would seem intuitive for the tonic chord of the major scale, but that name was already taken, so people differentiated by saying major 7. Hence all 7th chords with major 7ths had to say the word major. All chords with minor 7ths should just use the 7.

The system of naming 7th chords is inconsistent mainly because it originated from pencil scrawlings on music charts and changed from bandstand to bandstand. The word dominant arose I believe mainly to differentiate the chord from its cousin the major 7 chord. I agree the name is unnecessary but unlike the OP, it doesn't keep me up at night.

I would love more information on how chord symbols arose in the 20th century and have gone digging for answers but found little to nothing. Maybe a good doctoral thesis for someone.

To reiterate my point in the OP, I started on guitar in the 60s, and I didn't notice anyone calling a 7 chord a 'dominant 7' chord until about the 80s, sometime. it never really bothered me at all, until my jazz piano teacher in about 2003 (I think it was) told me it was incorrect, where 'dominant' is the the function (you know, mediant, subdominant, dominant, submediant, etc), and not the correct way to refer to a 7 chord. After then, what bothered him started bothering me now. I wish he never mentioned it, come to think of it.


AS for symbols, I didn't see things like D-7 for Dm7 until the late 80s, when I saw my first 'real book'. My guess is that these variations on symbols where the result of Berkely school jazz students, the guys who invented the real book. But, I don't know.

There was a film about the famous American Pianist, his name was Eddy Duchin, played by Tyrone Power. There was a scene in the film where, I think it was, the bass player told a pianist (not Eddie) to play the C7 chord, and the pianist argued "I am playing it." then Eddie entered the scene and spelled out the chord. (if I recall the scene correctly).

So, the point is, this was the 40s when the film was made and the character did not call it a 'C dominant 7, like so many guys of today do. And I didn't, either until the late 80s, when I started hearing more guys call it that. They called it 'C7' plain as that.

[setemupjoe]

To reiterate my point in the OP, I started on guitar in the 60s, and I didn't notice anyone calling a 7 chord a 'dominant 7' chord until about the 80s, sometime. it never really bothered me at all, until my jazz piano teacher in about 2003 (I think it was) told me it was incorrect, where 'dominant' is the the function (you know, mediant, subdominant, dominant, submediant, etc), and not the correct way to refer to a 7 chord. After then, what bothered him started bothering me now. I wish he never mentioned it, come to think of it.

I’m thinking the term popped up in a curriculum somewhere, possibly Berklee? If not, then another popular theory book and spread from there. As I said before, its use is to differentiate it from the other 7th chord types.

Because the 7th chord lacks an accompanying term like major or minor, some people feel more comfortable adding the word dominant to directly specify the chord type. It’s not wrong, but it’s also not necessary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

I’m thinking the term popped up in a curriculum somewhere, possibly Berklee? If not, then another popular theory book and spread from there. As I said before, its use is to differentiate it from the other 7th chord types.

Because the 7th chord lacks an accompanying term like major or minor, some people feel more comfortable adding the word dominant to directly specify the chord type. It’s not wrong, but it’s also not necessary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's probably it.

[Christian Miller]

This question regarding the use of the word Dominant for 7th chords and the larger topic of 7th chord nomenclature is one that I've spent time thinking on because I actually teach this to my theory class at MI.

In level 2 theory, students go from thinking in the four triads to extending chords to eight 7th chord structures. (ma7, 7, mi(ma)7, mi7, ma7(#5), 7(#5), mi7(b5), º7)

I always start the class by explaining pretty much what Christian outlined in an earlier post. The triads are legacy names from the time of Philip Rameau. Along with them are also the 7th chord (dominant 7th) and the half diminished chord (ø). These are all terms that predate the 20th century.

If you've had the chance to play early big band gigs, charts from before around 1920 would have banjo parts with no chord symbols and everything written in chord stacks. Usually someone nicely pencilled chord names on these parts over the years. Looking at these parts I sometimes see augmented 6th voicings which no one in modern theory would recognize today.

At some point, I assume musicians started naming 7th chords that were being used in these band arrangements to make reading and discussing chords easier. This was a haphazard affair and for a while there were a myriad variations on nomenclature. This has largely been streamlined but as we all know, there's still variations for many.

The pertinent question about the 7th chord is an interesting one. The 7th chord nomenclature is old and predates the 20th century. It was given a simple 7 because it is the 7th note of the scale when we build a chord from the dominant step of a major scale. 7th names weren't given to the tonic chord for example where we would have to make a differentiation.

Fast forward to the 1920's and people were grappling with how to name the other chords in the major scale using the 7th. C7 would seem intuitive for the tonic chord of the major scale, but that name was already taken, so people differentiated by saying major 7. Hence all 7th chords with major 7ths had to say the word major. All chords with minor 7ths should just use the 7.

The system of naming 7th chords is inconsistent mainly because it originated from pencil scrawlings on music charts and changed from bandstand to bandstand. The word dominant arose I believe mainly to differentiate the chord from its cousin the major 7 chord. I agree the name is unnecessary but unlike the OP, it doesn't keep me up at night.

I would love more information on how chord symbols arose in the 20th century and have gone digging for answers but found little to nothing. Maybe a good doctoral thesis for someone.

I’d love to know more too.. please let us know if you find anything more.

I too have early c20 banjo parts .. something something … tunedex!

I remember a Nikhil hogan show that had a bit of info about this, or maybe Roman numeral system in jazz and vaudeville and stuff? Wish I could remember what it was.

It’s a bit frustrating how hard it can be to find info on how the stuff we take for granted today in jazz evolved. But I do find it very interesting… (must resist the phd tractor beam….)

[Christian Miller]

I’m thinking the term popped up in a curriculum somewhere, possibly Berklee? If not, then another popular theory book and spread from there. As I said before, its use is to differentiate it from the other 7th chord types.

Because the 7th chord lacks an accompanying term like major or minor, some people feel more comfortable adding the word dominant to directly specify the chord type. It’s not wrong, but it’s also not necessary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

well a seventh chord also refers to any four note tertian chord. So it avoids confusion.

For example, the seventh chord on the second degree of the major scale is a minor seventh, the seventh chord built on the fifth is the dominant seventh

(although that is the correct use of dominant in that case)

[John A.]

I suppose kudos could be offered to anyone who can induce a multi-page abstruse discussion by serving up an Emily Litella-ism. That is an achievement of sorts. But no.

[princeplanet]

I did, princeplanet, in the 'bone to pick with jazz teacher' thread, just for you

Unfortunately, @ragman1 was bored with it.

Sheesh, can't please everyone.

Haha, well, calling it boring is probably a bit harsh, and anyway, I'm not one to throw shade, I've started my fair share of pretty lame "Captain Obvious" threads...

[GuyBoden]

It would make a lot more sense if the the default option for the 7th chord was major 7th and we then specified alterations like b7, minor and so on, but that’s not the way the system grew up which is according to practicality.

Yes, I agree, it could have been simply this:

C = C-E-G
C7 = C-E-G-B
Cb7 = C-E-G-Bb
Cb3 = C-Eb-G
C7b3 = C-Eb-G-B

But, we are emotional humans, not logical machines.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, I agree, it could have been simply this:

C = C-E-G
C7 = C-E-G-B
Cb7 = C-E-G-Bb
Cb3 = C-Eb-G
C7b3 = C-Eb-G-B

But, we are emotional humans, not logical machines.

well not even that, it’s just the way the system grew up. You can even learn a bit about music history if you pay attention to these weird quirks

like the layout of the piano keyboard. Why black notes and white notes?

theorists have never been in charge of this stuff - it’s always been about practical expediency, real world performance and composition which has driven a natural evolution in partnership with at least until the c20. Another reason to treat those same self important theorists with amused skepticism.

My favourite one which is mind blowing is the fact some baroque musicians added colouristic notes to chords (such as the ninth) including altered notes and may have sounded rather different our idea of ‘baroque harmony’
from written scores. These unprepared dissonances are of course reminiscent of jazz harmony.

But theorists had their own idea of what should be written down as ‘good harmony and counterpoint’ with all the dissonances nicely prepared and resolved (except for some special effects) and the improvised practices were not recorded in the scores.

Crazy huh? (4:25 in the video)

[ragman1]

What question are you referring to?

the entire premise of this thread is based on what he told me regarding the word 'dominant'. Nor does his site answer the question posited to this forum, why does everyone refer to a 7 chord as a 'dominant 7', which, as Dowdell told me, was redundant.

If you look at his chart of chords

403 Forbidden

the 7 chord does not mention 'dominant'.

So, that wasn't a question. I took his point of view on that one.

As for 'chorus', that wasn't a question either, but a bone to pick with pop/rock guys who use it differently.

As for 13 chord, his chart includes both the major 3 and the 11 on a 13 chord. but doesn't answer the question, as a practical matter, would you guys play it as 1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 13,, or 1, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13 ? Because to include the major 3 and the 11 sucks, to my ears, anyway.

Patrick, you're obviously very confused but the problem with talking to a confused person is that they remain confused. Someone can explain in very simple terms why the term dominant 7 is used but the confused person wouldn't know the difference, would they? They have to find out for themselves.

The correct answers to this and your other threads have already been given, often repeatedly, but if you're still uncertain it's not our fault. You'll just have to get there yourself, like we all did.

Admitting to yourself that it's your own thinking that's at fault, and not the people replying to your queries, would be a good start.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, I agree, it could have been simply this:

C = C-E-G
C7 = C-E-G-B
Cb7 = C-E-G-Bb
Cb3 = C-Eb-G
C7b3 = C-Eb-G-B

But, we are emotional humans, not logical machines.

Well is the second one C dominant 7 or Cb major 7?

The system we have isn’t perfect but it’s probably better than most others.

Barring an alternative history wherein we ditch this stuff and go back to Christians figured bass and stick with that, anyway.

[ragman1]

You know, it's not the jazz people who get confused by these things because that's the jazz vocabulary, they're used to it. It's the beginner or folkie type who only uses chords like C, Am or G7 who gets confused. He sees, for instance, Cmaj7 and can't see how a major chord can also be a C7.

But jazz uses all kinds of 7 chords, like maj7, m7, m7b5, aug7, dim7, and so on. So the term dominant 7 is there for clarity' sake. It's not necessary all the time, though. Jazz lead sheets just say 'C7' or 'Bb7' because it doesn't need further explanation in that context.

I know you know all this but the problem with Patrick, when this is explained, is he tends to reply 'Probably right' or 'Could be' like there's some confusion about it. But there isn't, it's a question of getting the point. Which he will eventually.

C7 = C-E-G-B

That's just a typo... hopefully :-)

[Reg]

Get your copies of


"Standardized Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer

https://www.popschoolmaastricht.nl/p...olNotation.pdf

Also.... The Art Of Music Copying by Clinton Roemer

[pamosmusic]

Get your copies of


"Standardized Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer

https://www.popschoolmaastricht.nl/p...olNotation.pdf

Also.... The Art Of Music Copying by Clinton Roemer

My arranging class was probably 60% “Writing Music So People Can Read It.”

I very vividly remember being sent back to the drawing board because a part had used enharmonic equivalents in an obnoxious way. Like GbG Gb or something silly like that.

[GuyBoden]

Well is the second one C dominant 7 or Cb major 7?

The system we have isn’t perfect but it’s probably better than most others.

Yes, you're correct, maybe use an underscore, so C_b7, because no one can ever find the underscore key, I'm only joking.

[Christian Miller]

Get your copies of


"Standardized Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer

https://www.popschoolmaastricht.nl/p...olNotation.pdf

Also.... The Art Of Music Copying by Clinton Roemer

Screw that, why don’t you tell the big band arrangers whose arcane charts I must read? /jk

In practice there’s no good reason for anyone to carry on the confusion. In practice we must read whatever weird and eldritch scribblings are deposited in front of us and somehow divine the correct harmonies from the hieroglyphs and arcane sigils contained therein.

Tbh sometimes it’s best just to use your ears…

[Reg]

My arranging class was probably 60% “Writing Music So People Can Read It.”

I very vividly remember being sent back to the drawing board because a part had used enharmonic equivalents in an obnoxious way. Like GbG Gb or something silly like that.

LOL... pretty standard learning process.... I did copy work for years, started while at Berklee making parts for Ensemble office and Faculty and then the rest of the colleges ... Harvard, New England, UMass BU etc...many of the not so famous composers . I needed $ and would always check parts etc... which led to transcribing gigs with publishers...

Now ... my hand notated charts suck.... thank you Finale. (even with harmonic mistakes).

There are also differences when notating for different instrumentation(s), intonation aspects. I would have loved to have had those Books mentioned above back then.

[Reg]

Screw that, why don’t you tell the big band arrangers whose arcane charts I must read? /jk

In practice there’s no good reason for anyone to carry on the confusion. In practice we must read whatever weird and eldritch scribblings are deposited in front of us and somehow divine the correct harmonies from the hieroglyphs and arcane sigils contained therein.

Tbh sometimes it’s best just to use your ears…

Yea... I do all the time. Like what use to be on some charts....... play what's notated, unless you can play something.... better.

It always helps when you know and have worked with the rhythm section(s).
I did a BB gig 2 nights ago... a great Vibes player showed up... and a good friend to play piano. I gave guitar book to Vibs and read with piano...... If you have rhythmic chops and can use your ears...you can create much better parts. Obviously you need to know arranger styles and just Know their licks, which somewhat defines their style.
It really only seems to be the old working band charts that can have notation discrepancies with chord notation.