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  1. #1

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    So-today, I've been mostly reading Dan Latarski's Arrpeggios for Guitar.
    Excellent book. The book is written, for those that don't know, as a Chord, then the arp for that chord, then the scale that the arp and chord are built on. It shows each chord, arp and scale in 5 positions-to show the relationships between the three.
    OK-his approach is that you play the chord, then do the arp, then the scale.
    Looking through it-the scales/modes in it are
    Ionian
    Lydian
    Lydian-augmented
    Dorian
    Melodic minor
    Locrian
    Mixolydian
    SuperLocrian
    Diminished H/W
    Blues
    Lydian b7
    Mixolydian b6
    wholetone
    Diminished W/H

    They cover all the commonly used jazz chords.


    In your opinions-is this a good way to go, as a practice methology? It seems to me, on first glance, that it'd give one an excellent grounding in the basic building blocks.
    Noting the above list- That sure is a lot less scales than are in my handy scale books. Instead of me working through all the modes etc etc, it seems to me that I should be concentrating on the ones on the list-would you agree?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    That theory would work if you only started on the root of the chord /scale. (ie Dmi7 play D dorian).


    But the idea it to NOT play the root. The bass usually handles that.

    SO you're better off playing F lydian or A aolean rather than D dorian against that chord. As a matter of fact that F lydian works graet against both the Dmi7 and G7. You avoid the root of both chords.

    Same with arpeggios. Fma7 works great against both those as well.

    FYI I use the phrygian against them as well and I don't see that on your list. G phrygian works well afainst the G7. It gives you an 11 alt 9 sound.

    The point I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't omit things. Everything is interlinked

  4. #3

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    Thanks, John.
    I think, although i'm not positive yet, that he gives the scale that each chord arpeggio is built on. I Think he's trying to get the chords, arps and the scale they come from together, without making any mention of solo'ing or actual chord progressions. Like-basic training, I suppose.

    He says that this is just to show you the relationship between the three--not that it's the best choice to use when solo-ing. He wants you to start by just doing the basic thing, then start working at the arps by starting on different notes in the arp, then jumping around the arp, etc.

    I think he then wants you to go on to experimenting with them, as you say, bringing in different scales and making your own arps, and then on to putting it all together when solo'ing , putting different arps over different chordsetc.
    He says it's highly important-probably THE most important thing- to have arps under your fingers as easily as a chord or specific scales would be.

    It's interesting and rewarding stuff, though.

  5. #4

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    I've posted (several times actually ) the basic starting point. * basic fingerings for the major scales and then the follow up, major 7th arpeggios, 2 octaves and their inversion off a stationary note.

    The idea is to learn the scales and arpeggios and then learn the modes using those fingerings and then changing 1 note in each arpeggio until you've covered all the 7ths.

    Learnig the arp's this way makes more sense because you see all the possibilites in a given area of the fretboard. You become les dependent on position playing

  6. #5

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    Thanks a million, John. That makes a lot of sense.
    I'll do a bit of searching on the forum to find those posts- I should have done that first!!

  7. #6

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    I think the way he has organized it makes plenty of sense. I am only mildly interested in the parent scale part though. He probably included that to a) cater to the chord/scale crowd (read academics), and b) to take his approach to it's logical conclusion.

    I work on the stuff John is talking about. The Fred Hamilton videos that have been posted and reposted the past few months sum up best what I try to do, along with copping licks from others.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by derek
    I think the way he has organized it makes plenty of sense. I am only mildly interested in the parent scale part though. He probably included that to a) cater to the chord/scale crowd (read academics), and b) to take his approach to it's logical conclusion.
    Chord---Arpeggio---Related Scale

    Those are logical relations. I think of them as starting points rather than a conclusion.

    I don't know the book in discussion but without inside information I would assume that an author would only present information in a way that they found effective in their own studies and for their students as well.

    I am very comfortable with your sense of what works well for you and enjoy your enthusiasm sharing that perspective with others.
    It is a bit of a leap and projection to articulate the motivations of the author.

  9. #8

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    If you go to this Amazon page you can see the book, and also view the first few pages (Click on Look inside, under the picture of the book), which include his preamble and explaination. He's much better at explaining himself than I am!!


    Amazon.com: Arpeggios for Guitar (The Progressive Guitarist…

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by billkath
    If you go to this Amazon page you can see the book, and also view the first few pages (Click on Look inside, under the picture of the book), which include his preamble and explaination. He's much better at explaining himself than I am!!


    Amazon.com: Arpeggios for Guitar (The Progressive Guitarist…

    Hmmm... That's a fretboard-centric book. If what I saw in the first few pages describes the book, there's no standard musical notation in the book? I like to see notes! It helps me analyze what I'm playing.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Chord---Arpeggio---Related Scale

    Those are logical relations. I think of them as starting points rather than a conclusion.

    I don't know the book in discussion but without inside information I would assume that an author would only present information in a way that they found effective in their own studies and for their students as well.

    I am very comfortable with your sense of what works well for you and enjoy your enthusiasm sharing that perspective with others.
    It is a bit of a leap and projection to articulate the motivations of the author.
    I thought it goes without saying that anything I post could/should include the following disclaimers;

    1. In my opinion.
    2. Though I may come across vaguely knowledgable and informed from time to time, I am mostly full of shit.
    Hence I used the word probably. Could have inserted maybe, perhaps, or any other word that conveyed my opinion about a book I have never seen, much less read.*







    *Please refer to the "full of shit" disclaimer.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Hmmm... That's a fretboard-centric book. If what I saw in the first few pages describes the book, there's no standard musical notation in the book? I like to see notes! It helps me analyze what I'm playing.

    Exactly. And if it was my only book, that'd worry me too. The idea is that these are moveable shapes/patterns/chords etc. What it does do is show what "relative" notes are in the chord,arp and scale--Root, b3rd, #9 sort of thing. you're right, though-no tab, no musical notation.

  13. #12

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    Derek,

    I am probably/maybe oversensitive about the bash "chord-scale/mode thinking" at every opportunity tendency of some in this forum.
    Personally I fear the influence of the health care industry lobby and their ability to keep single payer off the table more
    than chord/scale academics scaring authors into compliance. There is always a large bullshit risk when we speak for others with little or no evidence.

    Best,
    Bako

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Derek,

    I am probably/maybe oversensitive about the bash "chord-scale/mode thinking" at every opportunity tendency of some in this forum.
    Personally I fear the influence of the health care industry lobby and their ability to keep single payer off the table more
    than chord/scale academics scaring authors into compliance. There is always a large bullshit risk when we speak for others with little or no evidence.

    Best,
    Bako
    No worries. I just see two distinct camps is all. Chord/scale guys, and chord tones guys. Of course, there is cross pollenation of them, but I hang on a few other forums, and when questions are asked about how to handle certain chords or progressions, you hear these two distinct choruses.

    Then there is the mutally agreed upon ground of transcribing the masters. It just sounded like to me that this author/book was trying to put together a nice, logical process, one that would appeal to both groups. However, I have not even looked up the Amazon link, so yeah, the full of shit disclaimer fits in this situation.

  15. #14

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    Just to clarify, lads-the author wrote a great introduction in his book in which he addressed and stressed all your concerns. you can read his forward on that link. He's saying the exact things you all are.

  16. #15

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    Dear Billkat,
    First of all I want to tell you that your story is very interesting. To tell you honestly I've never heard about Dan Latarski.
    Scales are very important to me. But the math is to know which scale correspondences with a chord. This is a thing what I'm practicing right now. The scales you've written about in your message, do you have the chords?
    Long live Dan Latarski.
    Please let me know

  17. #16

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    I do have the chords, and I'll happily write them out here this aftenoon.
    .
    But-Latarski says " The scales I chose to show with each chord type are what your "average" garden variety musician might have chosen. However-don't be fooled into thinking that these are the only possibilities, because they aren't. Scale choice is dependant upon how any given chord is functioning in a song.
    A good jazz theory text and qualified instructor can put this in perspective for you"

    I'll jot them down later.

  18. #17

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    Lets say we use C as an example

    Ionian= C, C6, Cmaj7, C6/9, C (add 9), Cmaj9,

    Lydian= Cmaj7#11, Cmaj7b5

    Lydian Augmented= Cmaj7#5

    Dorian=Cm, Cm6, Cm6/9, Cm7, Cm(add9), Cm9, Cm11,

    Melodic Minor= CmMaj7, (Cm#7)

    Locrian= Cm7b5

    Mixolydian= C7, C9, C13, C7sus, C9sus

    SuperLocrian= C7#11,C7b5, C7b5b9, C7#5#9, C7#5b9, C7b5#9,

    Diminished H/W= C7b9, C13b9, C13#9,

    Blues= C7#9

    Lydian b7=C9b5,(C9#11) C13b5 (C13#11)

    Mixolydian b6= C9+, C9#5, C+9

    Wholetone= C+, Caug, C#5, C+7, C7+

    Diminished W/H= Cdim, Cdim7

  19. #18

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    P.S.--
    Now that we know what the average common or garden variety of musicians might play--why don't you experienced guys chip in here and give us some of the alternatives?
    It'd be nice to have them all in one place to compare and contrast, and would certainly help us on the road to greater knowledge?

  20. #19

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    Ok. It's a lovely chart but does nothing for me in terms of context.

    For example, the jazz minor has 2 basic dominant 7th sounds. One is Lydian dominant and the other is altered dominant. Which one depends on whether it's the V7 or tritone sub. ( F lydian dominant = B altered)

    So which sound depends on whether your going to an E or a Bb

    Also for example, "One Note Samba" is in the RB as Dmi7 Db7 Cmi7 B7b5. Are you going to play D dorian , Db mixolydian, C dorian, B altered? Sounds like a lot to think about while each measure goes by at 3-4 seconds.

    Knowing all the scale possibilites is great. But I think they all need to be tempered by what comes before and where it goes to.

    One thing I have noticed in my musical travels is that most tunes don't get much into extensions. Usually they just write out up to the 7th and let the melody determine the upper partials. (In the example above the F melody means that the Cmi7 is more like Cmi11). Also most guys will (or should) lay off the extensions and give you room to move.

    So all those chords that you wrote out above would be left up to you to use as a substitution (in most cases). Which brings me to what's easier to think about? a whole bunch of substituted chords or sound types?

    To me it's types of sounds. Do I hear Lydian? Do I hear altered? Do I hear harmonic major? Do I hear a flamenco riff?

    IMHO we're better off memorizing sounds. Major 7, dominant 7 , minor 7, mi7b5, dim7, augmented, 7b5, mi#5 and then the alterations:

    b9, #9 , 11 , #11 (b5) #5 (b13) 13 (6).

    Once you know what sound you want you could even "invent" your own scale or note group to cover it.

    For example I like the sound of a ma7 with altered 5's so I made a note group of 1 3 b5 #5 7 . (C E F# G# B)

    So I 'invented' a pentatonic scale to fit the sound. (it's really from the 3rd mode of the jazz minor, just omitting some notes)

    But you could really go on for quite some time.


    .

  21. #20

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    Great stuff, John.

    Ok. It's a lovely chart but does nothing for me in terms of context.
    For example I like the sound of a ma7 with altered 5's so I made a note group of 1 3 b5 #5 7 . (C E F# G# B)

    So I 'invented' a pentatonic scale to fit the sound. (it's really from the 3rd mode of the jazz minor, just omitting some notes)
    Exactly what the author said.

    "" Scale choice is dependant upon how any given chord is functioning in a song.""
    "Experimentation is the key to becoming an accomplished improvisor"
    "the things in this book are meant to get you started down this path"

    Remember-and this is HUGELY important--this guide is NOT a guide to solo-ing, as such . It's simply a guide to teach you how arps, chords and scales are inter-related. From the chord, to it's arpeggio to a complete scale. And to teach you the basic arps--not necessarily where or when to play them.

    When you say
    Are you going to play D dorian , Db mixolydian, C dorian, B altered? Sounds like a lot to think about while each measure goes by at 3-4 seconds.
    his take is-arps should be as common under your fingers as a chord. Nothing else-he's just saying it's a device that needs to be practiced. he's certainly NOT saying think of scales and modes-quite the opposite. He says that will bore the listener silly.
    Last edited by billkath; 05-19-2010 at 10:26 AM.

  22. #21

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    I have a different way of associating the arpeggio with the scale/mode. Play the scale fro 2 octaves, then play the full 13th forwards and back


    in C= C E G B D F A C

    This will give you the quality of the chord that goes with each scale. This also gives you the list of possible 7th chords and triads that you can use to substitute.

    CEGB, EGBD, GBDF, BDFA, ACEG.

    CEG, EGB, GBD, BDF, DFA, FAC, ACE

    Of course against the major scale the F sounds a bit out but it's great using C Lydian and the F get's sharped.

    Here, play Bm7/C 8x9775 or Bm/C 332432 . There's a sound for you Cma13#11

  23. #22

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    Any one method can only go so far, and furthermore, if it's attempting to be an introductory method, it runs the risk of appearing cookbook-y. There's no royal road. Take what you can from hear and there. Too much attacking or defending and you just beat and leave the path unrecognizable.

  24. #23

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    Thank you for this quick reply. Sure, there are more possibilities. but each chord has an scale what is important to step to the other chord.
    O.k, thanking you in advance. It's time for me to go to work.
    I like this very much. (this controverse)
    hoping to hear from you

  25. #24

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    [quote=JohnW400;81272]That theory would work if you only started on the root of the chord /scale. (ie Dmi7 play D dorian).


    But the idea it to NOT play the root. The bass usually handles that.

    SO you're better off playing F lydian or A aolean rather than D dorian against that chord. As a matter of fact that F lydian works graet against both the Dmi7 and G7. You avoid the root of both chords.

    Same with arpeggios. Fma7 works great against both those as well.
    [/quite]

    +5

  26. #25

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    It's true what you say about not to play the root.
    your example is Dm = d-f-a-c.
    Fmaj6= f-a-c-d
    lydian = ok, f-g-a-b-c-d-e-f
    aeolian= a-b-c-d-e-f-g-a
    locrian is this case is ok too, b-d-f-a Bm7-5
    so the freedom is yours,
    thanky you anyway man.