Tri-Tone Substitution

[RML]

Hey Everyone this is my first post and im only sixteen so my knowledge isn`t the best but I was wondering about tri tone substitution. Is it basically that you can substitute the V e.g. G7 for a 7th chord a tri tone away , Db7? Surelay its more complex than that? Is it just to get chromatic lines in a ii-v-i?Also does anyone have any suggestions of songs it is? Sorry about all the annoying questions but any help would be much appreciated.

[m78w]

Hey RML
You've got it! You just sub a 7th chord a tri-tone away and that's it. The reason it works is because both chords share a 3rd and 7th, G = B and F, Db = Cb(B) and F.

There aren't a lot of tunes where this is written in, it is mostly just thrown in during solos by guys.

And yes it's added to give more chromatic motion to 2-5 lines.

MW

[RML]

Wow. I Love this forum already! Cheers for the quick and easty to understand reply. Well I guess if thats really all there is too it maybe i should move on to a differnet type of substitution, any suggestions?

[jonasfixe]

Wellcome RPL

Check also http://www.jazzguitar.be/tritone_cho...stitution.html

joao

[m78w]

Here are a few more easy subs you can start working on now that you've got the hang of the tritone sub thing.

Backcycling: This is where you run a cycle of 5ths progression using dominant chords.

So Dm7/G7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

can become

E7A7/D7G7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

or

F#m7B7/E7A7/D7G7/Cmaj7

You can also try half step 2-5 movement:

Dm7/G7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

becomes

Ebm7Ab7/Dm7G7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7 ala Stablemates

or

Dbm7Gb7/Dm7G7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7 ala Moment's Notice.

Enjoy!
MW

[RML]

Thanks a million for all the help again. Now I dont want to push it but maybe you could give some more substitutions.Cheers!

[m78w]

No Problem,
Here are a bunch of Subs you can use on a 2-5-1 in C.

Trane Changes

Dm7Eb7/Abmaj7B7/Emaj7G7/Cmaj7/

Onc chord subs.

Dm7/G7/Dbmaj7/Cmaj7

Dm7/G7/Abmaj7/Cmaj7

Dm7/G7/Gbmaj7/Cmaj7

Dm7/G7/Ebma7/Cmaj7

Dm7/G7/Bbmaj7/Cmaj7

Backdoor Subs

Fm7/Bb7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Gm7C7/Fm7Bb7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Gbm7B7/Fm7Bb7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Em7A7/Fm7Bb7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Cm7F7/Fm7Bb7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Ladybird Subs

Cmaj7Ebmaj7/Abmaj7Dbmaj7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Em7Eb7/Ab7Db7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Em7Eb7/D7Db7/Cmaj7/Cmaj7

Etc.......

Enjoy!
MW

[Aristotle]

Thinking that one chord “substitutes” for another didn’t help me much. It's too much of a formula, and doesn't always sound good.

It’s natural for chords resolve in fourths or chromatically.
This bass line wants to go to C: E-A-D-G
This one wants to go to C also: E-Eb-D-Db
Maybe it’s just a coincidence that the second pair and fourth pair of chords are a tritone apart.

[jonasfixe]

I guess you are basically right. Pretending that tritone sub is a formula is false. It is a resource we might try, and it may give us new ideas and new sounds. It may as well sound bad.

Anyway check wikipedia article, it has a classical explanation as well (it comes from german sixth, I didn't know!):
Tritone substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joao

PS: If you want to know everything, check also this: Augmented Sixth Chords

Thinking that one chord “substitutes” for another didn’t help me much. It's too much of a formula, and doesn't always sound good.

It’s natural for chords resolve in fourths or chromatically.
This bass line wants to go to C: E-A-D-G
This one wants to go to C also: E-Eb-D-Db
Maybe it’s just a coincidence that the second pair and fourth pair of chords are a tritone apart.

[Aristotle]

I guess you are basically right. Pretending that tritone sub is a formula is false.

But that is how it is often taught and initially learned. I took a whole semester of this: 45 hours and probably another 90 hours of homework. Then they start propounding that one can substitute for a substitute, endlessly. It quickly reaches a point of absurdity. Take Joe Pass’s “blue side” video with him trying to explain breaking up two measure of four-to-the-bar G7 with an Ab7:
[G7-G7-G7-Ab7][G7-G7-G7-G7]
as an example of a tritone sub (for a sub)

On one of his earlier videos Pass gets stuck trying to explain the use of some chord as a sub for sub, which he finally decided was the flat-five (tritone) of something – and then musing out loud - I don’t know how I got this confused, I am not really a “theory” guy. But that’s what happens. Everything is the flat-five of something. Experience had taught him that a certain progression of tonalities would “work.” Who cares if it is the flat five of the substitute chord, replacing another substitute chord, within a temporary modulation?

It would save this young player and maybe others too, from going down too long a path of unproductive experimentation. Instead, get a book with a bunch of turnarounds, analyze them, transpose them, modify them, get used to the effects of the progression variations (majors-minors, maj7-dom7, and alt 5ths have – and so what “works” in what type of song situation. I think there are better ways to study embellishment and chromatics. Like in the Joe Pass books.

Take this progression.
Dm7 – DbΔ-C
All with the C on top. Sounds like something you might hear in a song.

That DbΔ is not a “tritone” sub, because it doesn’t have the common tritone with G7; doesn’t have a tritone at all. That’s why some say “flat-five sub.”

Thanks, I have never had chance to expose these ideas to criticism before.

[m78w]

Take this progression.
Dm7 – DbΔ-C
All with the C on top. Sounds like something you might hear in a song.

That DbΔ is not a “tritone” sub, because it doesn’t have the common tritone with G7; doesn’t have a tritone at all. That’s why some say “flat-five sub.”

The tri-tone substitution does not necessarily mean that a chord has a tri-tone in it and it doesn't always mean that it shares a tri-tone with the original chord.

In the case above the Dbmaj7 is a tri-tone sub for G7 as Db is an augmented fourth away from G.

The tri-tone sub is often taught wrong, to break it down to it's easiest form:

Any chord of any quality an augmented fourth away from the original chord can be used in a progression.

So like the example above G7 could be subbed with:

Dbmaj7, Db7, Dbm7, Dbm7b5, DbmMaj7, Dbmaj7#5 etc, etc, etc.

The reason that a tri-tone sub always sounds good, and therefore sometimes taught as a "rule" like in classical theory, is that the bass motion moves very smoothly. The movement of Db to C is the most important part of the progression, not the upper or middle voices, or the quality of the chords. It is this half step movement that resolves the dissonance and brings closure to the progression.

MW

[jonasfixe]

Without wanting to create controversy (specially with m78w, who has proven expertize and very helpful - thanks ) I would say I prefer to think more strictly about these rules.
I wouldn't say that all those subs sound good, specially if I'm not playing alone. If it is a solo or chord mellody, they might sound acceptable, or even good, but there seems to be some ramdomness when I just pick up one chord a tritone apart. If there is a piano, a melody, a bass, it may collide, specially if the other players take the same freedom.

I think It might give us good quick solutions to vary our speech, but must be analysed.

Here´s what I learned so far (and this is what I would call a strict approach of tritone sub)

-I can ALWAYS substitute a 7b5 chord for another a tritone apart: a G 7b5 for a Db 7b5 , for instance, because they share EXACTLY the same notes: G B Db F

-There are other cases where I change the color/type of chord, and the chords separated by a tritone have the same notes, so in these cases I can also substitute ALWAYS one for the other. I have collected some:

Tritone substitutions
position 1st chord CAGED 2nd chord CAGED
3x342x ----G 7 b5 ---- E ---- Db 7 b5 ----C
x4546x ----G 7 b5 ---- E ---- Db 7 b5 ---- A
xx4557 ----D 13 9 ---- C ----Ab 7 b13 #9 ---- E
x5456x ----D 7 #9 ---- C ---- Ab 13 b5 ---- E
xx4554 ----D 9 b5 ---- C ---- Ab 7 #5 ---- E
x46457 ----Db m7 ---- A ---- G 13 b5 b9 (no 7)

[m78w]

I agree, with any sub it is always a matter of taste whether the chord "works" or not, it's not the rule that dictates the chord, it's the chord that dictates the rule.

I find that when doing any of these, or other, sub, I always have to get my ears around it first before I can use it in a playing context. For example, if I'm told that a Db7#11 chord works instead of G7 and I try it on a tune I won't be able to do it properly at first. I need to do it over and over so the sound feels more comfortable to my ears, not just my fingers, then I can manipulate the chord properly.

What I try and do is always work on a chord or sub or whatever that sounds "weird" to me, trying to work it everyday until it sounds normal and I can hear it in the context of a tune or progression. Then I move on to the next sound.

A great exercise I do with my students, which I got from doing a transcription of a Ben Monder blues solo, is to take an F blues and solo as if you were in B blues. So play every chord a tri-tone away. At first everyone, including myself, sounds aweful doing this, but after a few days certain sounds and resolutions start to come forward and you can play a B blues over an F blues and make it sound good to yourself and to an uneducated audience.

There are no right or wrong answers to any of these questions, and there are no right or wrong ways to learn jazz. Everyone is different and has different tastes which is what makes jazz such an exciting and compelling music to listen to.

When you think about it Miles rarely used subs in his solos and he sounded amazing, while at the same time Coltrane used subs on almost every chord alot of the time and he sounded great. So there's more to jazz than just the theory behind the solos.

MW

[jonasfixe]

amen

[Aristotle]

So like the example above G7 could be subbed with:

Dbmaj7, Db7, Dbm7, Dbm7b5, DbmMaj7, Dbmaj7#5 etc, etc, etc.

The reason that a tri-tone sub always sounds good,

Always? I could take any standard and find a dozen places where it will sound terrible because of clashes with the melody. This is one of the reasons I pointed out turnarounds as a focus of study, because various runs, chord fills, etc. take place in this part of the tune. A turnaround or fill could be based on m7 chords with roots moving in minor thirds. I guess my question is what is the point of trying to convince my self that there is a "rule" about the relationship between any of the m7 chords and the G7? It's just an improvision.

Consider these points:
1. Not all of those chords on your list have a common tritone with the G7. Remember, the original reason given why the tritone sub "works" - the common tritone That's why I mentioned the Dbmaj7. No tritone.
2. One of your examples also included Dbm7-Gb7. That's not the tritone of G, either.
3. Many melodic lines are going to want to resolve (even if temporarily) to a G note. The natural scale of a Db7 contains Gb and Ab, and no G.

All of this adds up to a "rule," that is broken so much more often than it applies, it call into question logic of having the rule or teaching it. What is the upside?

and therefore sometimes taught as a "rule" like in classical theory, is that the bass motion moves very smoothly.

The fact that the ear wants the Db to resolve down to C was my point about why it is not really "substituting" for a G, but legitimate voice leading on its own. It could also be that the Db is really just part of an alternating bass that goes from the root (G) to the (flatted) fifth.

Let's look at another progression. Take a song with a verse based on:
Am-G-F7-E7.
Would anyone argue that the F7 is really a "substitute" of a B7? Isn't it just another half-step leading tone?

I am willing to accept that my viewpoint is eccentric. So what, this is jazz anyway. But, "substitution" theory was a hindrance to me.

[Aristotle]

Here´s what I learned so far (and this is what I would call a strict approach of tritone sub)

-I can ALWAYS substitute a 7b5 chord for another a tritone apart: a G 7b5 for a Db 7b5 , for instance, because they share EXACTLY the same notes: G B Db F

Again, I would ask what is gained by telling your self that you "substituted?" That's one chord, not two.

[jonasfixe]

For an accurate interpretation of that F7, there is nothing like classical theory. Check the link to wikipedia I posted above.

F7 is a bVI 7.
Considering the tune is in Am, the German sixth fits perfectly. (And it has been used for more than 200 years so far, so it must sound good....)

[jonasfixe]

In these cases, as the chords have the same notes, substitute means using an invertion ( a different bass).

What I gain is a different sound. Try the common D 7th chord:
X 5 4 5 3 X

and try the 2nd invertion (5th on the bass):
5 X 4 5 3 X

For me it's a much richer sound.

Let me just make it clear that I agree with you, as I don't see this as rules, but as resources we can use critically.

On what concerns musical analisys, I always prefer the classical approach, when I can.

Again, I would ask what is gained by telling your self that you "substituted?" That's one chord, not two.

[m78w]

Well there are two ways of looking at subs, the first is subbing when there is a melody going on, in which case you were right in your arguement that some of those chords won't work.

The other case of using subs is only using them in the blowing. To me this is much more common. Great players and amateur players alike usually, and I'm speaking in very general terms, use the original chords for the melody, and then sub during the blowing. If they do use subs over the melody you are definately right the melody HAS to dictate what the chord will be as the melody is the most important aspect of the tune, any chords original or subs should compliment the melody.

And again I'll say that the term tri-tone substitution does not apply to the shared 3rd and 7th between Db7 and G7, it is a term that is used to describe the root movement of Db to G, which is a tri-tone apart, hence the term "tri-tone" sub.

To me, and this is just my opinion based on my experiences as a player and teacher, these "rules" are important as a practice/learning tool but they should never dictate what one plays on the band stand.

For me I use these subs to help bring excitement and tension to my playing. It was mentioned above that Dbmaj7 or Dbm7b5 wouldn't work as a sub for G7 because it does not share common tones with G7. To me this is the whole point of using subs. Sometimes one would want to use a common tone sub, like Db7 for G7, but for me alot of the time I want to use chords that take me away from the current key, that create tension and excitement and that grab the listeners and other band members ears before bringing them back into the key and resolving the dissonance/tension.

And the thing that I gain by calling these types of chords substitutions is that it allows me to play over the specific chord, not thinking about G7+Db7, but really focusing on taking the harmony into the sound of Db7, or whatever sub I am using. There are definately times when I like to pass between two chords, like playing one bar of G7, one bar of Db7 then resolving thato Cmaj7. But there I am thinking of the two chords and going between them, to me that is different than subbing a Db7 for a G7.

I think this is all just semantics, it seems we're all describing the same thing from different angles. I agree with what was said above, I don't think it matters how one thinks about these things, as long as one can use them on the bandstand and make them sound good, and make others understand what they're doing, then that's all that counts!

MW

[m78w]

The last thing I'll say is a great quote from Pat Martino, that I've heard Jake Langley use as well:

" All 12 notes work over any chord at any time, it is my years of experience as an improvisor that tell me what notes to play and when to play them. There is only one rule in jazz, if it sounds good then play it."

MW

[wizard3739]

Your Pat Martino quote is is interesting to me because Howard Roberts taught me the same concept expressed in a different way. Howard said anything will work if your ear accepts it! The reason it works is if you like the sound, you will play it with confidence and the audience really likes to hear that confidence come out in your music.

[lkmuller]

Your Pat Martino quote is is interesting to me because Howard Roberts taught me the same concept expressed in a different way. Howard said anything will work if your ear accepts it! The reason it works is if you like the sound, you will play it with confidence and the audience really likes to hear that confidence come out in your music.

I gotta tell you, I've been a fan of Howard Roberts since I was a teenager, and that was forty + years ago. I have most of his works on CD and never get tired of listening to him. What a privelidge it must have been to study under him. The tone he got on his guitar is what I've been striving for for years.

[RML]

Wow nice to have my first post spark off such an intellectual debateStill though surely someone can suggest at least one song where tri tone sub is used to good effect??Cheers

[m78w]

Check out All or Nothing at All, bar 14, the Db7 is a tri-tone sub for G7 resolving to Cmaj7.

MW

[Aristotle]

I think this is all just semantics, it seems we're all describing the same thing from different angles. I agree with what was said above, I don't think it matters how one thinks about these things, as long as one can use them on the bandstand and make them sound good, and make others understand what they're doing, then that's all that counts!

If one already has paying gigs, it may not matter what one’s preferred composition and arranging strategies are. However, my point is about teaching methods. Efficiency and effectiveness may have something to do with whether one ever gets a paying gig, no less makes a steady living. I found substitution theory slowed me down. They were for other students I saw couldn’t make it work well either. You described making practice for days to try to get sensible sounds out of playing blues in B over someone comping blues in F. That’s what I am talking about. I think that is inefficient and unproductive.

Wow nice to have my first post spark off such an intellectual debate Still though surely someone can suggest at least one song where tri tone sub is used to good effect??Cheers

One of the problems is if you improvise over a G7 chord with a Db7 scale, the Gb to Ab part of the scale is not going to create any ooh’s and aah’s.

I am not sure any of the following would qualify as tri tone subs. Try Satin Doll; basic chords. Some might argue that measures 5 and 6 Abm7-Db7 is a flat-five sub for Dm7-G7. Of course, that’s another reason why I say “tri tone” is just another confusing name, because Abm7 and Dm7 don’t have tri tones.

Here is how I might re-harmonize it. I am not sure these are flat five subs either, because this is one chord in each (four-beat) measure isntead of the original two chords per measure. Basic voicing starting at the 5th position.
Dm7, Db9, Em7, Eb9

Those voicings sound a bit “cheap” to me. I prefer this idea as four-note chords, middle four strings, starting in the 3rd position, imitating syncopated tutti horns, slight vibrato on the last playing of each #9 chord:
Dm9, Db#9, Em9, Eb#9

Are those “tritone” subs. I don’t know.