Tri-Tone Substitution

[m78w]

One of the problems is if you improvise over a G7 chord with a Db7 scale, the Gb to Ab part of the scale is not going to create any ooh’s and aah’s.[/COLOR]

Well, one thing to keep in mind is that if one decides to use a Db7 over a G7 chord that the #11 is the preferred choice for that chord. So for Db7 the #11 is a G note, which helps to eliminate the Gb, which would definately sound "clashy" with the G7 chord. Though in all fairness Oscar Peterson was known to use a Gb on a G7 chord in his voicings, but then again we're all not Oscar!

I think it all boils down to ones ears. An Ab on a G7 chord sounds very "inside" to me, but that's just my taste. Heck I even think an Ab7 chord over G7 sounds good, but I've got weird tastes.

As a matter of teaching I think that a lot of books and institutions try to make mountains out of mole hills and confuse a lot of people. Someone mentioned above that they took like 90 hours of lessons about tri-tone subs! To me that's way overboard. When I teach this material I break it down to the simpliest form because this stuff is only usefull if it can be applied in a practical situation. Nobody wants to get a calculator out on the bandstand to figure out a sub! But some books sound like this is what it takes.

When I first present this material to students I tell them, when you have a G7 you can play G7 or you can play Db7#11, that's it. Believe it or not most students don't care what it's called, they just want to figure out what it sounds like. Which is a great thing! Too much has been written about jazz, I've studied with a great teacher who was a student of Lenny Breau. When I asked him about his lessons with Lenny he said he never spoke of names, like tri-tone subs etc, he would just say, "this is how to sound like Bill Evans, here's how to sound like Dizzy, etc, and he know the sounds of those things, but not the names.

I've been teaching for a long time, and up until a year ago I've always taught by showing students theory, scales, arpeggios, subs etc. Now all I do is play with the student and if I want to show them a cool new sub I just play it and have them figure it out by ear. It has suprised me that all of my students learn much faster this way. I guess we all get overwhelmed sometimes with all of this information and we can forget that music is an aural art. That the best way to learn it is by ear, and that the theory should come after the fact to explain why something sounds good. Theory shouldn't dictate our playing, our playing should dictate theory.

MW

[Jazzaluk]

I totally agree with you comment that Jazz is an aural art and instructors should present the sound first then explain the relevant theory so the student can organize the sound in the context of what they already know.

I think it is also important to emphasize when it is most appropriate to apply sounds, particularly "outside" sounds. (BTW - by my definition- outside playing is when the solo line is based on a substitute chord while the rhythm section stays on the original changes).

It seems to me that, many players, professionals included, seem to be bored with inside sounds and start to introduce outside sounds whenever the opportunity presents itself, whether they are appropriate or not - often at the expense of the listener. There is a point where too much outside playing begins to obscure the tonal center and in fact diminishes the tension/release effect.

I often try to introduce new people to jazz as listeners and have discovered that they respond much better when the tonal center is preserved by the musician and outside phrases are used similar to drummers using drum rolls - as accents and between forms and phrases.

Anyway... I believe that the use of outside lines is one of the key and unique elements in jazz music and the way the musician controls their use is fundamental to creating art for listeners (who may not be musicians).

Thoughts?

[m78w]

Jazzaluk,

I couldn't agree more! One really cool lesson I give to a lot of students who play way outside all the time is:

I have them play over a static chord, say C7, for a while and ask them to play totally oustide, so say a Db7 chord.

After a minute or two I tell them to play a few bars on C7 then back to the outside chord Db7.

What they all notice is that because they play "outside" constantly an immunity is built up to it and the C7 actually sounds "out" when they play it.

It's all a matter of relativety. If one plays outside all the time, than outside becomes their version of inside. So if they play an inside line once in a while that becomes the "outside" sound in their playing.

I think, especially in jazz, that everything is related. That one can only play "outside' if they firmly establish for the listener what is inside. A great example is Louis Armstrong, he would play triad's with a few blues notes for large parts of solos, then when he snuck in the 7th of a chord it sounded so amazing! If he had played the 7th on every chord it wouldn't have had any effect. But because he saved it for an exciting moment, the 7th becomes a highly effective and interesing color on his chords.

It's the same thing with chops. A lot of my students just rip over changes non stop, so one thing we work on is playing very slowly and leaving lots of space before unleashing the 16th notes. That way when they finally play the double time licks they mean something. It's not just another fast line, but an exciting moment that jumps out to the listener.

MW

[Jazzaluk]

It's all a matter of relativety. If one plays outside all the time, than outside becomes their version of inside. So if they play an inside line once in a while that becomes the "outside" sound in their playing.

I think, especially in jazz, that everything is related. That one can only play "outside' if they firmly establish for the listener what is inside.
MW

I like it! This is going to keep me busy for a while.

I suppose this is evident in the melody of many standards, which have surprising tensions in the melody that establish a new inside sound in the listener. The tune "Easy Living" comes to mind.

[m78w]

yeah, it's like Miles' solo on So What. He starts with just the Root, 4th and 5th scale degrees and then when he hits the 6th, the "Dorian" note, man it's so intense.

Normally that note wouldn't do much because it's glossed over in the middle of long lines, but like Louis' stuff, it is really effective when set up properly.

Easy Living is a great tune for this, also for me any of the McCoy Tyner albums reflect this way of thinking on a larger level. He'll have a modal tune that's way outside, then come back with an easy swinging tune that's bebop oriented, then a complex harmonic tune with weird accents and modes etc, then back to a modal tune. Each tune is different so his playing and his style is never stagnent, it's always fresh and new!

MW

[lkmuller]

When say a Db7 scale over a G7 aren't we all alluding to an Ab melodic minor? (In which there is no Gb) V7 chord resolving to a I chord, use a jazz minor half step above; V7 chord not resolving to a I chord use a jazz minor a fifth above?

[m78w]

Yes that is exactly right, the 4th mode of melodic minor, sometimes callsed Mixo #11 or Lydian b7, produces a 7#11 sound.

So Ab melodic minor is Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

Starting on Db it is:

Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb (B)

so the arpeggio that forms is

Db F Ab B Eb G Bb

or in numbers

1 3 5 7 9 #11 13

The reason I think of the Db root when playing over G7 is that both chords are 7ths. That way I'm eliminating one step in my head when blowing. So instead of seeing G7 and thinking of a Melodic Minor sound or mMaj7 chord, I just think of a 7#11 scale/chord a tri-tone away.

I have an article coming out shortly on this site regarding this subject with pages of examples so keep an eye out!

MW

[Aristotle]

I've been teaching for a long time, and up until a year ago I've always taught by showing students theory, scales, arpeggios, subs etc. Now all I do is play with the student and if I want to show them a cool new sub I just play it and have them figure it out by ear. It has suprised me that all of my students learn much faster this way.

That’s what I was trying to tell you all along. Did you discover this since you posted about having them play B7 blues over an F7 blues, forcing them into perpetual clashing “sub?”

When say a Db7 scale over a G7 aren't we all alluding to an Ab melodic minor?

Yes that is exactly right, the 4th mode of melodic minor, sometimes callsed Mixo #11 or Lydian b7, produces a 7#11 sound.

Is that more of the aural approach?

Let’s see, if you start on Eb, it’s the old Mixo b6 scale. Starting on F, it’s the Aeolian b5 scale. Starting on B, it’s the old b5b6 scale. Starting on Bb, it’s the old Dorian b9 scale. Those are the “preferred” scales of the b6 sub, the b7 sub, 3rd sub (or di-tone sub) and the b3 sub.

[m78w]

I don't really see what you are trying to get at with your posts. If you do not want to understand the concepts than why bother spending time worrying about it. Just play what you want to play and enjoy it! If you don't like subs or playing advanced harmonic concepts that you shouldn't feel preassured too or feel you have to.

Jim Hall's made a really good living just playing the basics and not concerning himself with all of this stuff. We shouldn't feel forced to overthink this stuff it should just be about making music and having fun doing so.


MW

[Aristotle]

I don't really see what you are trying to get at with your posts.

So. I'll take my chances that the new guy, for whom my message is intended, will get it. I didn't make any real progress until I stopped trying to apply some of the instructional ideas given in this thread. It's simple enough.

Just play what you want to play and enjoy it! If you don't like subs or playing advanced harmonic concepts that you shouldn't feel preassured too or feel you have to.

I do play what I want, and post what I want. I am not objecting to "advanced" concepts, just weak concepts. "Subs" is not advanced, just a tricks and licks approach, a bag of gimmicks. It's up to original poster to make up his mind.

If you put up stuff that is self-contradictory or leads to unproductive practice, why isn't it helpful to others for me to explain why? If I put up advice that youi think isn't good, tell him why. Or is counterpoint too "advanced?"

[m78w]

I would love to hear your thoughts on counterpoint and its application to jazz improvisation. This is a subject I am very interested in and I am always interested in hearing how other guitrists approach the subject.

I'm always open to learning new things, can you please outline your counterpoint approach compared to the traditional subs approach. I'd definately be into checking it out, maybe this old dog can learn some new tricks.

MW

MW

[Aristotle]

your counterpoint approach compared to the traditional subs approach

I don't know what that means. Counterpoint approach to what?

[m78w]

In your last approached you asked the question:

"Or is counterpoint too advanced?"

So I was just wondering if you could elaborate on your approach to using counterpoint in improvisation.

MW

[Aristotle]

Counterpoint was a reference to the posts, not to improvisation. You know, if made a point the original poster that you didn't think was valid, you should counter it for his benefit.

[m78w]

Ah, I must have misunderstood.

[Aristotle]

Is there such as thing as a couterpoint approach as opposed to a sub approach? I would think counterpoint must mean more than one line, but doesn't have to involve any chromaticism.

[m78w]

Well counterpoint can mean more than one line at once, or in different registers, like two instruments playing against eachother in different octave.

Here's some examples that I put together on how to approach counterpoint on the guitar.

The terms I use are:

Harmonic: When two notes are played at once.

Melodic: Single line playing.

Parallel: When two lines move in the same direction and with the same intervals.

Similar: When two lines move in the same direction but with different intervals.

Oblique: When one voice moves and one voice stays the same.

Contrary: When two voices move in opposite directions.

The examples are a bit "technical" sounding, but once you get the hang of it you can impov cooler lines and ideas. I tried to keep things simple and easy to read so the concept came across succinctly.

The blues solo I wrote gives an example of how to take these approaches and apply them to a tune. Again it's a bit sterile, but it's just meant to paint the picture.

MW

[Aristotle]

I never thought just harmonizing a line was enough to be called counterpoint. Take a song like Don't Get Around Much. You harmonize that with sixths and thirds or octaves, that's not really two independent lines.

Improvisational counterpoint to me is more like what Joe Pass did on some old pieces that I think were called Sevenths and Ninths. He also did a lot of stuff where there was a clear distinction between the bass line and "melody."

I've spent a long time working on classical. It's just the desire to take a break from knuckle-busting that brings me to the forum. I'd like do something a little easier and was trying to find out if a 335 and Roland JC is still a good rig. I guess I'd probably buy a pick, too.

Even though I was concentrating on classical, I played through the Duarte books and some Barobosa Lima. Those are some rich, orchestral-style treatments, plenty of counterpoint idea - but not improvised.

If the bridges in the middle of this is improvised, then this is the best improvisational counterpoint I ever heard. If you don't want to listen to the whole thing, the "how did he do that" stuff (for me) starts around 1:10 in.

[m78w]

I would say, and this is coming from the textbook defination, that counterpoint is the practice of two or more lines working against eachother, either at the same time or independantly.

What Buzzurro is doing is playing a walking bassline, for the most part, and blowing lines over top of it. This is a very good example of two part counterpoint. I would guess that most of that is worked out, to some extent at least, there's a guy in Milwaukee that I've played with named Jack Grassel who does this very well. If you go to his websit, Instruction, Books, CDs, From Jack Grassel Jazz Guitarist, you can find a series of books called Big Axe, Super Axe and Daily Exercises for solo guitar that are all designed to help one learn this concept, of walking and soloing at the same time.

It's not easy to do and using a pick and fingers might be tricky, most guys use their fingers when doing this. Even Joe used only his fingers after his first Virtuoso album, it's too hard to play solo guitar like him, or Jack, or Francesco with a pick, from my standpoint anyway.

MW

[Aristotle]

The line about the pick was a joke. I haven't owned one for 20 years.

[lkmuller]

So there's obviously nothing you can get out of this forum, so why are you here? Other than to troll? I took classical guitar in college but found it too rigid for my taste. Couldn't enjoy playing pieces written by guys that had been dead for 300 years. Buzzurro doesn't impress me. Sounds like Chet Atkins on steroids. This is the last post I will make in response or in reference to Mr. Aristootie. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.

Aloha

[Aristotle]

So there's obviously nothing you can get out of this forum, so why are you here? Other than to troll? I took classical guitar in college but found it too rigid for my taste. Couldn't enjoy playing pieces written by guys that had been dead for 300 years. Buzzurro doesn't impress me. Sounds like Chet Atkins on steroids. This is the last post I will make in response or in reference to Mr. Aristootie. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.

Aloha

Just because I linked to the guy doesn't mean I think he is very good. Although he must be 100 times better than a troll like you.

[m78w]

I don't think this is the place for name calling and discussions of this nature.

I think everyone would agree that it's best to keep the conversations in this forum at an adult level.

MW

[Aristotle]

I don't think this is the place for name calling and discussions of this nature.

I think everyone would agree that it's best to keep the conversations in this forum at an adult level.

MW

I agree, but I have a limited supply of other cheeks. Besides, that guy doesn't sound anything like Atkins.

[Dyold]

GİRL FROM İPANEMA is the example for this question(tritone sub)