Keyboardists, know our pain

[Jimmy Smith]

Hey Christian.

I watched the video and I’m wondering why one should learn arpeggios for Dm G7 CM7 when the C major scale covers it all.

I know it’s standard advice, but understanding the ii V I is based off the I simplifies things.

Because jazz is about playing the changes whether you're playing chords or melody. Part of soloing in jazz does utilize key centers whether major, minor, or playing blues licks off the 1 for example. But it's essential to be able to outline changes in one's solo.

[Lionelsax]

Hey Christian.

I watched the video and I’m wondering why one should learn arpeggios for Dm G7 CM7 when the C major scale covers it all.

I know it’s standard advice, but understanding the ii V I is based off the I simplifies things.

Here an answer, do you feel like having a headache ?
It's a little more interesting at 3.00 !
That was years ago, I understand why I don't play it anymore.

[pamosmusic]

Hey Christian.

I watched the video and I’m wondering why one should learn arpeggios for Dm G7 CM7 when the C major scale covers it all.

I know it’s standard advice, but understanding the ii V I is based off the I simplifies things.

Yeah a lot of it is stylistic. It’s one of those things where people say “I’m doing it right, but it doesn’t sound like jazz.” Stylistically jazz hits changes, and even when it’s modal or less functional or generalizing over several changes, the line shape is an important part of what makes jazz sound like jazz. Something about the balance of skips and steps.

You’re far more likely to hear a jazz player playing way outside the changes and tonality and using shapes that are characteristic of jazz—sixth leaps, triads, skips across seventh chords, wide intervals and half-step chromaticism—than you are to hear someone playing inside with just a scale. The closest might be Miles on the original So What but his lines still have a lot of those skips and turns-back that you kind of expect to hear in jazz. Which is almost the point maybe?

So playing the scale will work, but (by itself) it won’t have the play on tension and resolution, or characteristic line shape that makes jazz sound like “jazz.”

[rpjazzguitar]

I'd reframe that and say that it's a good idea to know the chord tones of the chords you're playing over.

It's also a good idea to know the tonal center of the passage you're playing within.

So you know that a iim V7 IM is in the key of the 1M and you know the tones in each chord.

This allows you to stay very vanilla, if you want to, while still outlining the changes, and it's a good foundation for being more adventurous.

Seems to me that this covers it.

[Christian Miller]

Hey Christian.

I watched the video and I’m wondering why one should learn arpeggios for Dm G7 CM7 when the C major scale covers it all.

I know it’s standard advice, but understanding the ii V I is based off the I simplifies things.

because noodling around in the general scale is not the same as expressing changes. You should be able to spell out the changes in your lines without any backing.

anyway, don’t take it from me, take it from Pat. Go to about 13:20 for a demonstration from Pat.

if you get too much into the scale racket you’ll start asking questions like ‘what do I play on this?’ everything gets complicated and theoretical fast and you still won’t be playing the changes.

The first call is always - get comfortable playing the chords in your lines. You can then extend out from there with substitutes, scales and extensions and so on, whatever you like. But start with just triads, 1 3 5, it’s like the foundation. Pat plays a lot of triads.

I know people think jazz is all about the complex chords, but often lines have a very simple basis. It’s the rhythm that makes them sound interesting. Substituted triads is one of the best ways to get the fancy sounds anyway.

[Hugo Gainly]

Very enjoyable and suitably eccentric video there Christian, enjoyed it very much. (Though I am still wondering about that double switch panel/socket).

Coupla thoughts,

'...the things you don't have to think about on the piano...'

You miss out the big one for me - that is, guitarists having to use two hands to do one thing. That's two processes whether you train your brain or not and the bang/buck feedback is not as high as two hands doing different things on a keyboard.

Unless you are Allan Holdsworth, the ability to play more than one minor second is denied us (see Apollo and some transgression or other back in Antiquity)

Then, what you say.


Also, I was told that you can get through Giant Steps using Bbmin Pentatonic, top to tail.

[frabarmus]

because noodling around in the general scale is not the same as expressing changes. You should be able to spell out the changes in your lines without any backing.

anyway, don’t take it from me, take it from Pat. Go to about 13:20 for a demonstration from Pat.

if you get too much into the scale racket you’ll start asking questions like ‘what do I play on this?’ everything gets complicated and theoretical fast and you still won’t be playing the changes.

The first call is always - get comfortable playing the chords in your lines. You can then extend out from there with substitutes, scales and extensions and so on, whatever you like. But start with just triads, 1 3 5, it’s like the foundation. Pat plays a lot of triads.

I know people think jazz is all about the complex chords, but often lines have a very simple basis. It’s the rhythm that makes them sound interesting. Substituted triads is one of the best ways to get the fancy sounds anyway.

Great PM video, thanks for sharing!

IMO what he says about rhythm feel is paramount!

[Reg]

Yea you need to do the work... maybe a very small group don't... I don't know any.

There are many ways to approach and learn to play.

Allan Allan... the reasons are , with music, it's not just what your playing, it's what is the reference and what can become the relationships. In the simple example.... II V I ... what is/are the tonal reference. The I II or V. Generally when playing jazz or in a jazz style... most of what we play isn't actually notated or spelled out. Because we're required to know and be aware of what isn't notated or spelled. And when your not aware and understand what may be implied of what the basic changes are .... it gets difficult to know and develop musical relationships.

You really need to get to the point where you can play and be able to have a conversion at the same time... I'm not just saying this... this comes from putting in the time. When you can play the shit without being in your own world starring at your hands etc...

And yea you might get all this BS from just playing tunes.... but most don't get there. And when they get there... it's limited to what they've played. Not bad or wrong... but limited.

I also need to say.... we as guitarist have huge advantages over piano. And I work with lots of pianist. We have rhythmic advantages, volume, timber, attack or percussiverness ... I won't even get into to the physical things or travel etc...

[djg]

we as guitarist have huge advantages over piano. We have timber...

yes we have!

[John A.]

What is it that a lumberjack shouts to warn everyone that a tree is falling? Hmmm, is it “look out below”? No that’s not it … "fire in the hole?" Nope … "SOS!"? No, that’s not right … Wait, I’ve got it

Timbre!

Anyhoo, to AllenAllen’s question, if you just think of ii V7 I as all I you kind of stunt your thought process and miss out on all the subs, extensions, and alterations of the V7. Also, by playing the V7 as such in your lines (e.g., by emphasizing its 7th and/or altering the 9ths you get voice leading effects and a sense of motion and tension/resolution you don’t get by just running up and down the I major scale. You could do that, but it would create a sense of stasis that’s usually not what soloists want.

[grahambop]

yes we have!

I think there’s more timber in a piano than a guitar though.

[pamosmusic]

I think there’s more timber in a piano than a guitar though.

[Reg]

OH man... sometimes I love when when I screw shit up. I'm still smiling.

[rpjazzguitar]

Y
I also need to say.... we as guitarist have huge advantages over piano. And I work with lots of pianist. We have rhythmic advantages, volume, timber, attack or percussiverness ... I won't even get into to the physical things or travel etc...

Ever since I read this I've been thinking about it.

It's a matter of aspiration. I tend to think of piano as primary when the band has both -- and I may be a little worried, depending on the context, when there's no piano, although it usually goes fine.

But, I don't tend to think of the guitar potentially being better than a piano.

Having played a number of times with Reg, it's clear that he makes that happen. Not only don't I miss the piano, but I actually prefer the guitar, the way he plays it.

It's his choices of chord sequences/voicings, placement of the chords in time, snappy (for want of a better descriptor) attack, and guitar tone.

I have a question for Reg, if he'd be kind enough -- how close can somebody get to that sound using a 335 type? Is that great sound mostly in the guitar, the amp, the FX box, the pickup or does it absolutely require all of them to be exactly right?

I'm going to guess that it's mostly the guitar and pickup, but I don't really know.

[Reg]

"I have a question for Reg, if he'd be kind enough -- how close can somebody get to that sound using a 335 type? Is that great sound mostly in the guitar, the amp, the FX box, the pickup or does it absolutely require all of them to be exactly right?

I'm going to guess that it's mostly the guitar and pickup, but I don't really know."

Hey Rick... thanks for kind words... (checks in the mail).

yea thanks for sitting in, that was fun... right. That was by far best gig of week. Music was good...but just great afternoon. ( you like Violin LOL)... Eric's playing Drs next week... and I'll pull in a brass player... from who's ever around. Got's to keep changin it up. (I heard some cool voicings etc...comin from your amp...LOL)

Yea about the sound and style. Yes you need a really good jazz box and an amp that are clean... doesn't change the sound. ( all the guitars I use have Bartolini pickups and most have all new wiring and sheets of copper grounding... (habits from old studio days.... the clicks etc...)The only 335 or simi solid style I could get to work was a custom Godin... the A-6 ultra with added volume knob. To be able to keep the sound and just adjust the volume. It's not a tele on steroids... but a Jazz Box on steroids. I only use it for outdoor or big hall festivals etc... where you need to be loud and not have a feed back issue. Same round wound BB.013 Thomastik strings. ( I'm a normal guitarist... I have rooms full of guitars).

(I'm sure that sound can be found on different setups).... I've just always like the sound and style created from playing Jazz Boxes... even good acoustics. (I play way too hard and way too many notes, chords etc...) Disclaimer it's not the best for single note soloing... but generally we as guitarist comp more that solo LOL.