The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Posts 76 to 82 of 82
  1. #76

    User Info Menu

    If you're discussing Andalusian harmony (the "cadence"), watch out for what our friend here refers to as ethnocentrism. There is no "dominant" as such, hence no "altered" harmony. And yes, it can be perfectly natural to play a b3 over the 4th (major) chord in the progression. Switch on the subtitles for a rough translation of what she's saying.


    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
  3. #77

    User Info Menu

    Given the 1-b7-b6-5 descending tetrachord bass and the phrygian half cadence are an important aspect of Baroque harmony… I think that’s a little beside the point unless you are discussing Flamenco specifically.

    classical harmony introduces the ‘bVI7(#11)’ predominant chord (correctly the Augmented sixth) which you see a lot in jazz.

    Flamenco may have some commonality with jazz in the sense that it’s a fusion of European and non European influences.

    In fact that may also be true of Baroque and classical music. Naples, the centre of musical culture in the c17 to early c18 was under the Spanish crown at this point.. the Chaconne, Tarantella and other dances of the era may have had a non European origin, so that’s interesting.

    (I don’t think I’m really qualified to talk about Middle Eastern and North African music but the ‘Andalusian cadence’ does feature in those musics too to judge from the little bit I’ve played. Again I assume there’s some cultural cross pollination going on - Classical Arabic music is purely monodic. Descending melodic sequences which are common in ME music suggest descending stepwise bass or circle progressions to the western-influenced ear. I’d have to ask my friend who is up on all this stuff.)

  4. #78

    User Info Menu

    There are several allusions here to the "Spanish Phrygian scale". For clarification of the use of b3 and 3, and the traditions behind these options, see the video I posted. I'm not talking about Baroque.

  5. #79

    User Info Menu

    Adam Maness, being cheeky, calls it the "secret dominant scale" @3:52

  6. #80

    User Info Menu

    So it's a mode of Bebop Harmonic Min., that sounds like Mark. That works, I mean that's where I learned how to use it back in the 60's.
    A way to not sound like folk music and still use a blues Dom. V7 chord. (not that there is anything wrong with sounding Folk like. But that would have been almost oxymoronish).

    Anyone remember the Oscar Peterson and Andre Previn shows on BBC back in the 70's

  7. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    There are several allusions here to the "Spanish Phrygian scale". For clarification of the use of b3 and 3, and the traditions behind these options, see the video I posted. I'm not talking about Baroque.
    I see - well you mentioned the Andalusian cadence and I wanted to point out this progression is certainly not unique to flamenco, although it may have a bit of Spanish/moorish dna to it even when used in common practice music.

    Re Paola’s pont - Tbh I think naming scakes like this is always a little cutesy/problematic anyway. it’s a bit like calling a scale the name just because it pops up in another culture. Gypsy and Hungarian minor and so on.

    (I actually toyed with calling a harmonic minor #4 Mozart minor as it works so well over the Augmented Sixth chord which is such a hallmark of Classical era harmony. But it’s just cutesy bs really.)

    So, for example Hijaz and phrygian dominant are not really the same thing despite having the same basic pitches. (Although the Arabic tetrachord system is really clever and quite applicable to western scale construction. And we all have a shared ancestor in Pythagoras apparently.)

    As I say these so1called ‘false relations’ most notably b3 on dominant are probably naturally resultant from improvised lines and of course, the blues, rather than hailing from a direct common ancestor with flamenco music, though there are interesting commonalities and convergences.

    In fact, they also have a history in European classical music too, the so called English cadence, again I doubt a through line from this into jazz.

    Jazz harmony is definitely partly - though not completely- derived from European classical and popular music (polka, marches.) The African harmonic influences are subtle and often more process oriented to my mind, and the stacking/layering up of harmony seems to me to be more West African than European even though the basic chords are of course recognisably European.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-01-2023 at 02:52 PM.

  8. #82

    User Info Menu

    (I sometimes wonder if a distinctive part of jazz harmony is actually the misspelling…)