The official mad-at-theory thread

[Bobby Timmons]

Heh. He told me my chords sounded too dissonant.

[SandChannel]

Heh. He told me my chords sounded too dissonant.

Consider it a badge of honor.

[mr. beaumont]

Out of tune, out fo key, or just bad resolutions? There's a difference...

At any rate, not a good conversation for this thread. Perhaps we could start a thread where we all play Wayne Shorter tunes...er...in tune.

[James W]

Someone with perfect hearing can hear things you can't hear.

Someone who experiences auditory hallucinations can hear things you can't hear.

[JimmyDunlop]

How can an organ be out of tune?

Sorta trollish comments I'd say...

Heh. He told me my chords sounded too dissonant.

It is very different Jimmy, your recordings didnt sound like this, no way. They are in another level, you dont play like this guys lol!!!. And I didnt say all of it, just some chords sounded to me kinda dissonant, nothing to do with being out of tune. You a have a professor, and that is a good way. I just wanted to give you feedback
So I didnt say all your chords, just in some parts. But anyways you can ask your professor and stick to him better.

[JimmyDunlop]

Out of tune, out fo key, or just bad resolutions? There's a difference...

At any rate, not a good conversation for this thread. Perhaps we could start a thread where we all play Wayne Shorter tunes...er...in tune.

I could not determine, maybe the mix of this 3 or at least of the last 2.
I completely agree with you, lets get back to the original topic.

[SandChannel]

This is a weird thread - even for this forum which revels in weird.

[Bobby Timmons]

It is very different Jimmy, your recordings didnt sound like this, no way. They are in another level, you dont play like this guys lol!!!. And I didnt say all of it, just some chords sounded to me kinda dissonant, nothing to do with being out of tune. You a have a professor, and that is a good way. I just wanted to give you feedback
So I didnt say all your chords, just in some parts. But anyways you can ask your professor and stick to him better.

Woohoo! Thx. I thought that was an interesting comment because I always want to add more dissonance or crunch to my playing. Of course use it well.

[Bobby Timmons]

Barney stresses both in his lesson. He begins the vid by stressing the importance of aural competence but also uses theory to support the process. Exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Both. You guys who would say the golden age players just heard up everything are out of gas. I now have Barney, Bill, Charlie, Miles, and Thelonious talking theory or the academic side of things from their own mouth.

[ragman1]

I didn't mean that any of us could play Shorter tunes.
I meant evolutions in Shorter's playing over several dozen years.
Listen to W.Shorter's last quartets.
What is going on there when it comes to group cooperation.
I didn't mean the solos of the musicians, but the music created by the Shorter quartet.
It's hard for me to write more clearly because I don't know enough English. I'm sorry

I've been right through his discography and on Spotify where they have most of the albums. There's a lot of it. The early stuff is basically with Miles and I think he flowered with Miles. Miles liked him, it was a good relationship. Before that he was with the Jazz Messengers which was okay but I don't think really gave him any individual voice. Probably his best liked album was Speak No Evil but I don't necessarily trust popularity.

I've heard his latest albums like Quartet too. I think it's clear that his playing became freer and more abstract as time went on, but one would expect that. It would be a natural evolution for most players unless they were stuck in a groove.

[ragman1]

it sounds strange, like if it was out of tune, or out of the harmony. where did you get this recording?

I made it myself 20 minutes before it was posted. It's me trying to solo on Footprints by Wayne Shorter. I did it because I prefer playing to too much talking. But no one has to listen. Just ignore it!

If it sounds strange it's because the choice of notes is selected that way. Some scales and notes will sound exactly like the chord they're being played over. Others will sound as though they're sort of floating through the chords. It's deliberate. Other notes, of course, will be dissonant and that is also deliberate, but dissonance has to be done in a certain way, it's not just any clashing out-of-tune sound.

I didnt know it was from him, I wouldnt have commented that if I knew it

I like my own stuff, you can say anything you like :-)

[ragman1]

Have we had this yet? I'd say it was relevant. Mind you, he hasn't actually answered very much. Possibly because Wayne did in fact pull a lot of his stuff out of a hat.

[ragman1]

Well, I see no reason why we can't post versions other than originals. If they have valid points to make, of course. Christian's done one, I've done one, and here is Barry Greene. I think this one's pretty good, quite original.

(Jimmy Dunlop, maybe you shouldn't listen to this because it is VERY out of tune and you might not like it).

[JimmyDunlop]

Super.
Now convince Ragman to practice.
He admits he doesn't need to practise.
So many words here about theory, hearing, exercise, etc.
Good Luck

The funny thing is that he is trying to justify that poor perfomance, basically saying that he did that on purpose. To me it just sounds like someone who cant play the guitar and with no ears at all.
This is not bad, and I would ignore this and dont comment again about it, but what calls my attention is that he has been like 16 years with 7000 posts talking as he knew about music when his real skills proof the opposite. The problem is that he speaks very well, kinda like Marinero, how many starters/beginners had been influenced by this kind of people? This is really dangerous!! I understand a forum is not a school but there must be some limits.

Now getting back to the main topic, I think it is an interesting debate. Lets focus on that again

[JimmyDunlop]

Barney stresses both in his lesson. He begins the vid by stressing the importance of aural competence but also uses theory to support the process. Exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Both. You guys who would say the golden age players just heard up everything are out of gas. I now have Barney, Bill, Charlie, Miles, and Thelonious talking theory or the academic side of things from their own mouth.

I always thought these guys had music education

[ragman1]

You're wrong, Footprints is easy. It's pentatonics from the 5th or dorian, which is easy. Once you've sorted the bridge out it's easy. And the bridge depends on which version you use. In the original, Shorter just used Em pentatonic or chromatic runs. Check out a transcription. Here you are:


Of course, how really good it is depends on the quality of the player. But in itself it's not a hard tune. Bebop, especially fast, is hard, this one isn't.

[mr. beaumont]

Footprints is a blues!

With the world's hippest turnaround. Over which you can play almost anything as long as you resolve strong. It's a magnificent study in tension and resolution.

But easy? If it was easy, then it would be easy.

[ragman1]

I tried it as a straight blues - two chords and a turnaround. Apart from being in 3/4 it doesn't quite work. It's rather disrespectful, if that's right word, of the melody. It's not really a blues in that sense, it's a ballad, it's too tuneful. Have a go, see what you think.

As for easy, Jeff, you could do it with your eyes shut. And you know it

[ragman1]

There's a very interesting exposition of the rhythm in the Wiki article. Check this out.

'Rhythm

Although often written in 3/4 or 6/8, it is not a jazz waltz because the feel alternates between simple meter and compound meter. On Miles Smiles, the band playfully explores the correlation between African-based 12/8 (or 6/8) and 4/4. Drummer Tony Williams freely moves from swing, to the three-over-two cross rhythm—and to its 4/4 correlative.

The ground of four main beats is maintained throughout the piece. The bass switches to 4/4 at 2:20. Ron Carter’s 4/4 figure is known as tresillo in Afro-Cuban music and is the duple-pulse correlative of the 12/8 figure.This may have been the first overt expression of systemic, African-based cross-rhythm used by a straight ahead jazz group. During Davis’s first trumpet solo, Williams shifts to a 4/4 jazz ride pattern while Carter continues the 12/8 bass line.'

Footprints (composition) - Wikipedia

It always amuses me when I see stuff like this. Do you think they sit around working it all out? Or do they just play it?

[mr. beaumont]

I need to see if there's an isolated drum track for that "Miles Smiles" version, because Tony Williams is absolutely insane on that one. He's literally writing the book on modern jazz drumming right there.

Gotta give some insane credit to Carter too, for the restraint he shows in holding down that figure and letting Tony bend it so many times.

Joe Chambers takes a much different approach on "Adam's Apple," turns the tune into a loping hard bopper.

I love both versions.

[ragman1]

I was just listening to the Adam's Apple one. A lot of energy there.

[GuyBoden]

Yeah both Barry and Pat (and Holdsworth!) are examples of what Mick Goodrick called ‘derivative thinkers’ where they would take a small number of scales/pitch sets (or what Pat called ‘topics’) and apply everywhere, while ‘parallel thinkers’ apply a large number of different scales and ideas on different chords.

in the first case you learn less scales but have to get really good at converting chords into other chords in your head

in the second case applying scales to chords is trivial - you just choose the relevant pool of notes - BUT you have to learn a million scales!

I still feel the first approach is better at first, because if you have great language, ideas and voicings that work on one chord you can get the most mileage out of them by applying them on almost every other chord.

If you can do the ‘mental arithmetic’ it’s extremely efficient, probably a helpful aspect of, for example, you needed to relearn guitar in adult life due to a brain haemorrhage.

FWIW it’s how I mostly do it.

The other approach can be a bit peicemeal if you don’t have a well organised approach.

good grief, Pat, Barry and Mick all gone. We’ve lost some great ones these past couple of years. Allan a few years before.

I had a look at a few transcription examples of what Pat Martino played over a Major 7th chord and he doesn't seem to play dorian type lines from the 6th note as you'd expect from his minorisation system.

He seems to outline a Major scale, but with no 4th or adds a b7, but with no 4th too.

Example: C Major 7th: C-D-E-G-A-B and C-D-E-G-A-Bb-B.

Allan Holdsworth mostly played his own non-functional harmony compositions and seemed to hear/play the many key changes as dorian key centres.

I am not familiar with the Barry Harris approach.

Interesting................sorry, back to your debate.

[JimmyDunlop]

I'm sick of it.

lol, Kris, dont get angry at him, just ignore him as I am doing from now. He already revealed us his knowledge through his recordings....
so I think he is trolling or if not, then is something really worse

[ragman1]

Here's some fun. You'll like it

[ragman1]

Thought you might like that one, Jimmy :-)

His website's good too.