The official mad-at-theory thread

[Jimmy Smith]

The theory can be talked about endlessly.
... but I am interested in another matter.
Artist's charisma.
How is it that someone plays a jazz tune and I like it from the very beginning?
What does this have to do with theory?
Is it more about jazz talent than jazz theory?
for example;
There are some students who go together for jazz theory class.
They all play nice, but only one of them convinces me in playing jazz.

I agree that charisma is a key element. I often think about where it comes from too. I think talent, inspiration, and other unquantifiable factors play a role, but also that the musician either executes all the theoretical aspects well or a whole bunch of them. Usually it isn't the case that most of the theoretical aspects are shoddy and the music ends up effective to the listener. I think it's a combination between inspiration/creativity/what have you and sound playing that ends up making the music sound charismatic.

[Christian Miller]

Is the only thing I can think of when any one mentions charisma these days

[Litterick]

If you can't get enough of this, they are arguing about theory on The Gear Page, right now.

[PMB]

incidentally if you play Insensatez as a waltz it sounds like a Bal Musette Waltz from 1930s Paris. (Esp if you make a few subtle chord subs)

Also that Bbmaj7 should probably by more like Bb6 so Gm/Bb is a more vanilla choice (ie ‘in the song’ rather than some extra jazz nonsense). Maybe Gmadd9 there.

Now transpose the melody up a tone and play it over Chopin's Prelude in E minor...

[PMB]

I hope you're not suggesting everyone has complexes except you!

Reminds me of the joke:

A man is driving down the freeway when his mobile rings. "Honey, be careful out there on the main road today. There's supposedly some guy in heavy traffic driving in the wrong direction!"

"One?" he replies, "There are hundreds of them!".

[ragman1]

Fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa
Aeeeyaaai!

Yup, that sounds about right.

[ragman1]

I've met quite a lot of people who, once a year, clutching a bottle, used to go around saying 'Happy Charisma' to everybody

[Christian Miller]

Now transpose the melody up a tone and play it over Chopin's Prelude in E minor...

The number of melodies on the fifth and fourth against a chromatic bass is just not funny. Good counterpoint innit. Plus the 5-b6-5 move has grief connotations as does the bass. Chopin didn’t invent any of this, but his treatment is uniquely … Chopinesque

(I also posted Bach’s highly chromatic treatment from the Well Tempered Clavier of the motive somewhere else on JGO)

Not sure where chim chim cheree feature in all of this though… or blue skies? (Playing against type?)

[boo]

Reminds me of the joke:

A man is driving down the freeway when his mobile rings. "Honey, be careful out there on the main road today. There's supposedly some guy in heavy traffic driving in the wrong direction!"

"One?" he replies, "There are hundreds of them!".

Even worse:

In our case there is exactly one guitar player who is not mad at theory, and he's not even a guitar player!

[ragman1]

Shopanne... right :-)

[ragman1]

Even worse:

In our case there is exactly one guitar player who is not mad at theory, and he's not even a guitar player!

Be fair, he used to play guitar before he went onto keys.

Thing is, he's come to a conclusion and he's stuck there, can't move. It's like a fundamentalist mindset, can't deviate. I was just reading the thread from the beginning. He started with his idea and, despite all the contrary arguments, can't or won't let go of it.

I tried to explain it to him that there are two views involved, one from the theorists' pov and the other from the player's - but to no avail. He just got angrier and more and more resistant till the insults started. Now he thinks it's a conspiracy or something. Not good.

I hope he reconsiders.

[boo]

…

I tried to explain it to him that there are two views involved, one from the theorists' pov and the other from the player's - but to no avail. He just got angrier and more and more resistant till the insults started. Now he thinks it's a conspiracy or something. Not good.

I hope he reconsiders.

I think this attitude was there long before, otherwise he wouldn't have started this thread.

[ragman1]

I can't play keys at all, I can't coordinate the two hands. Guitar means doing something different with each hand, of course, but they're not the same movements. On piano both hands are rhythmic and melodic and my poor brain can't handle that.

And how some piano players manage to sight-read two staves simultaneously on a piano score is completely beyond me.

[ragman1]

I think this attitude was there long before, otherwise he wouldn't have started this thread.

I'm sure it was.

Tell you what, Jimmy ought to read this, no question. It was posted on another thread and I've lifted it :-). It's an interview with George Benson. Takes you right through. He was playing professionally from an early age without any training at all except copying and learning stuff as he went along. He also played with, guess who, Jimmy Smith.

Like I keep saying, a theorist will look at him and say 'He's playing/using theory'. But Georgie had no idea at all, never heard of it. Someone said to him 'use chromatics' and he had ask what that was. That was when he trying to play like Charlie Parker. So there's the theorist-observer's view and there's what the player himself knows, which in this case was zilch about theory.

If Jimmy does read it he'll probably say there are always exceptions... but there are a lot of exceptions in the music field. Anyhow, it's a very good read apart from all this stuff. And it's up to him.

https://amhistory.si.edu/jazz/Benson...Transcript.pdf

[ragman1]

"Johnny Smith – Johnny “Hammond” Smith – was a great organist too. But Jimmy was his favorite. He was flashy and always bluesy and funky, and he had these fabulous records, Walk on the Wild Side with Oliver Nelson. Jack wanted to do something similar.
So they hired Benny Golson, who’s a great arranger himself and a great musician too. But he used me on the record. I said, oh man. You know, I don’t read any music, see? They had all this music. I said, uh oh. Here it comes. I’m looking at all this music. I said,
man, they got some notation. [Benson sings a melody.] I said, oh no.

But they made a mistake and rehearsed it twice, and that’s all I needed. As long as I heard the rehearsal, “All right, let’s make this record, y'all. Come on. Come on, Jack.” That was a – that was one of the highlights of my life. I just heard the solo in recent years, like maybe a year ago, and I said, is that what I played on there? Is that me playing that? I said, man, I was trying to be sophisticated on it. I should have did what Jack told me to do, play some more blues"

[ragman1]

"Miles called me. He said, “You coming to the studio?” I said, “They don’t need to be coming to me. I don’t want to take your money like that.” He said, “Don’t worry about that. Come on down."

I went down. Finally – they started playing – rehearsing the craziest song I ever heard in my life. It was a Wayne Shorter tune. I remember him complaining to Wayne about the song. He said, “Wayne, what kind of song is this?” He said, “I think you be writing these tunes just to hang me up, just to see if I could play them.” I felt the same way.

We rehearsed maybe an hour. The chart wouldn’t do me no good. So I was listening to what they were playing, trying to find something to play, somewhere to get in this tune. I think Miles liked it when I was rambling, rumbling, just rambling through things, because he heard – I played a few hot licks here and there – whoop whup, whoop whup, where it is? What key are we in? It was – we did a couple songs. One of them made it in that album, and one of them came out later"

[Christian Miller]

I started with piano and now I only play guitar.
Maybe going back to the guitar will be a good solution.
When I see how difficult the organ is, I get "mad."
Everyone has the right to choose what suits him best.

The thing is, they can do the feet

That’s got to do something

[ragman1]

For me, the matter is obvious: there are musicians of the old generation and the young generation.
The old generation of musicians didn't have the jazz education materials that the young generation has now.
The old school musicians had their ways of learning jazz/ear/ and they played brilliantly.
The funniest thing about all this is that young people often learn from what is left of old musicians.

Precisely.

[ragman1]

The thing is, they can do the feet

That’s got to do something

Oh, well, that's something else on the list. Not only two hands but also feet. Like a super-power

[ragman1]

mjo -

Have you seen this?

How Insensitive

[Jimmy Smith]

Thing is, he's come to a conclusion and he's stuck there, can't move. It's like a fundamentalist mindset, can't deviate. I was just reading the thread from the beginning. He started with his idea and, despite all the contrary arguments, can't or won't let go of it.

Why would I change my mind about something that is true? Lol

I tried to explain it to him that there are two views involved, one from the theorists' pov and the other from the player's - but to no avail. He just got angrier and more and more resistant till the insults started. Now he thinks it's a conspiracy or something. Not good.

There are not 2 sides, there are 3 sides: player, theory, and both. I'm not a theorist, I'm a both-ist. I'm not sure anyone on the forum argues on the side of mainly theory so there are really 2 sides engaged in the debate. Only you try to straw man me that I'm a theorist when I'm a both-ist. Go back and quote 1 argument I've made, that you aren't straw manning me about, which is false. That's why 1 person can defeat a whole horde. There's this thing called the truth.

[Jimmy Smith]

I started with piano and now I only play guitar.
Maybe going back to the guitar will be a good solution.
When I see how difficult the organ is, I get "mad."
Everyone has the right to choose what suits him best.

I get mad too. But I told myself eff it, I'm just going to do it. Since I have enough experience to get it and a good teacher. If I started from the beginning on organ and had to do all that crap I would probably be too mad.

[ragman1]

Why would I change my mind about something that is true? Lol

But Jimmy, it's only true from the observer's point of view, not the player's. I do wish you'd get this simple thing. He plays a line, he has no idea what it is technically, but the theorist, observing, says it's a harmonic major. Therefore you conclude the player is using theory. He definitely isn't, it just looks like it.

There are not 2 sides, there are 3 sides: player, theory, and both.

No, there's the observer who knows theory and the player who doesn't. Those are the two sides. I'm saying both are true from each point of view.

I'm not a theorist, I'm a both-ist.

But you've said many times that anyone who plays something must be using theory. I'm questioning that. It wouldn't apply unless that person knew what they were playing in theoretical terms. It does not apply if they're just imitating it (like Benson used to) because they think it's a 'hot lick' they know sounds good.

Have you read that link about George Benson? He knew nothing about theory, he couldn't even read charts, he just copied stuff he'd picked up. It's there in his own words!

Only you try to straw man me

As if. I wouldn't know where to begin. What do you think I'm doing exactly? And why would I bother? Are you saying I'm deliberately trying to persecute you or something? You're crazy.

[Jimmy Smith]

I don't dispute you that some people learn and play without theory! What is wrong with you?! They're the minority. I tell you bring something up that I'm wrong about and don't straw man me, then you directly go and straw man me!!

[ragman1]

I don't dispute you that some people learn and play without theory!

I must have missed that. It wasn't what you were saying before. I must be pretty thick to have missed that. Unless you changed your mind halfway through or something.

I'll have a look back at the posts. I hope it wasn't on the thread that was deleted!