The official mad-at-theory thread

[kris]

I really enjoyed Jack's post on this forum.
I learned theory in 3 months and why should I be mad at theory.

[ragman1]

You were faster than me.

Only in English.

He's saying the thread could easily go on for 24 more pages if the posters had complexes about theory... presumably the same complexes which are informing their posts now (in his opinion).

Which in turn implies that he does not have these complexes, it's everyone else who has them.

This interpretation subject to correction, naturally :-)

[ragman1]

Who's Jack?

[ragman1]

Oh, that Jack. I'd forgotten about him.

[SedanDelivery2022]

Hey guys, what are we arguing about?

[Bobby Timmons]

I hope you're not suggesting everyone has complexes except you!

Well someone has em to result in discussion like this.

Can you express it more clearly?

Complex: 2. PSYCHOANALYSIS
a related group of emotionally significant ideas that are completely or partly repressed and that cause psychic conflict leading to abnormal mental states or behavior.

That's you guys. Embodying false premises creates inner conflict resulting in irrational behavior. All I do is tell the truth that on the whole the greats use theory and most average musicians are dependent on using some theory, so theory is helpful so long as it's balanced with ear. Then you get all triggered and start posting compulsively, neurotically for 25 pages on end, trying to revise history that the greats really just heard everything up, start straw manning and insulting that I just want to theorize and not play actual music, and get all personal to assert your false narrative.

[ragman1]

That's you guys. Embodying false premises creates inner conflict resulting in irrational behavior. All I do is tell the truth that on the whole the greats use theory and most average musicians are dependent on using some theory, so theory is helpful so long as it's balanced with ear. Then you get all triggered and start posting compulsively, neurotically for 25 pages on end, trying to revise history that the greats really just heard everything up, start straw manning and insulting that I just want to theorize and not play actual music, and get all personal to assert your false narrative.

Et voila. That's why it's gone to 25 pages. Time to go home.

[AllanAllen]

Well someone has em to result in discussion like this.

Complex: 2. PSYCHOANALYSIS
a related group of emotionally significant ideas that are completely or partly repressed and that cause psychic conflict leading to abnormal mental states or behavior.

That's you guys. Embodying false premises creates inner conflict resulting in irrational behavior. All I do is tell the truth that on the whole the greats use theory and most average musicians are dependent on using some theory, so theory is helpful so long as it's balanced with ear. Then you get all triggered and start posting compulsively, neurotically for 25 pages on end, trying to revise history that the greats really just heard everything up, start straw manning and insulting that I just want to theorize and not play actual music, and get all personal to assert your false narrative.

Dude, I’m not trying to be mean, but you seriously might have a personality disorder. You have to let shit like this go. Life is precious, don’t waste it arguing online.

[Bobby Timmons]

[mjo]

I have over 100 theory books.
For sale.
If anyone is interested, I can make a long list.

!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!!

Page 24 of this thing, the freakin guy says ' theory books for sale ' -LOL
kris, I like you man. Maybe you didn't mean it to be this funny, but in the middle of THIS thread, it sure struck me that way

On another note:
A guy I work with took up guitar a year ago. He knows I play and told me early on " I'm NOT going to learn theory". I said " that's okay, the longer you go - more you learn, you'll end up knowing some. A few months ago he talked to me about practicing scales. I asked " what scale ?", he said " I don't know" and added " I suppose that's sad, I should know what scale "
.... I wonder if I was wrong about him automatically learning some theory ?? ....

..and another thing:
I'm working on How Insensitive. In one part I'm playing C-6,9 to G9/B to Bbmaj7, I'm playing a D7 arpeggio over that G9. I can't make sense of that, other that some lose relation to the G/B being B diminished and the D being the same chord.......
Do you guys have logical answer to why this works, something I can take to other tunes ??

...maybe I'm not mad enough for this thread ??

-cheers,
Mike

[rpjazzguitar]

!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...!!

Page 24 of this thing, the freakin guy says ' theory books for sale ' -LOL
kris, I like you man. Maybe you didn't mean it to be this funny, but in the middle of THIS thread, it sure struck me that way

On another note:
A guy I work with took up guitar a year ago. He knows I play and told me early on " I'm NOT going to learn theory". I said " that's okay, the longer you go - more you learn, you'll end up knowing some. A few months ago he talked to me about practicing scales. I asked " what scale ?", he said " I don't know" and added " I suppose that's sad, I should know what scale "
.... I wonder if I was wrong about him automatically learning some theory ?? ....

..and another thing:
I'm working on How Insensitive. In one part I'm playing C-6,9 to G9/B to Bbmaj7, I'm playing a D7 arpeggio over that G9. I can't make sense of that, other that some lose relation to the G/B being B diminished and the D being the same chord.......
Do you guys have logical answer to why this works, something I can take to other tunes ??

...maybe I'm not mad enough for this thread ??

-cheers,
Mike

G9/B is B G D F A. Named as a B something it's got Root, b13 #9 #11 and 7. So it's a B7alt, more or less. The alt scale is B C D Eb F G A which contains 3 notes of a D7 arp. The F#, I suppose could be thought of as part of a B7 scale, but the fact remains the chord has an F and your D7 arp has an F#. It works if the melodic statement is strong enough.

[ragman1]

In one part I'm playing C-6,9 to G9/B to Bbmaj7, I'm playing a D7 arpeggio over that G9. I can't make sense of that, other that some lose relation to the G/B being B diminished and the D being the same chord.......

Most people say they don't know how to negotiate the chords. It's rather difficult when someone's already found something to play!

I'm glad you can't make sense of D7 over G7. It's not sense and I don't know where you got it from. So I can't provide any logic for it, sorry!

The tune basically goes

Dm - A7 - Cm - G7

That's all, two minors followed by their V chords. So D minor and C minor. You can find the notes that fit, it's not difficult.

something I can take to other tunes ??

Any place you get a minor followed by its V.

[pauln]

..and another thing:
I'm working on How Insensitive. In one part I'm playing C-6,9 to G9/B to Bbmaj7, I'm playing a D7 arpeggio over that G9. I can't make sense of that, other that some lose relation to the G/B being B diminished and the D being the same chord.......
Do you guys have logical answer to why this works, something I can take to other tunes ??

...maybe I'm not mad enough for this thread ??

-cheers,
Mike

G9/B I'm going to call Bm7b5 here, so don't be confused.

First, play through and insert a Ddim7 passing chord between the Bm7b5 and the Bbmaj7.
Notice that it sounds good.
Now just play back and forth between the D7 and Ddim7 and notice the parallel half-step slide of everything except the D.
Notice how that slide sounds good.
Now play from the beginning and between the Bm7b5 and the Bbmaj7 insert the slide from D7 into Ddim7.
Notice that all this sounds good.

What happens if you leave out all that additional stuff (no slide, no passing chord) just soloing D7?

A lot of soloing moves are head fakes that get the attentive listener to anticipate and fill harmonic context that you just suggest without actually doing it. When you solo D7 you are implying a move into a Ddim7 passing chord to Bbmaj7.

[Litterick]

Embodying false premises creates inner conflict resulting in irrational behavior. All I do is tell the truth that on the whole the greats use theory and most average musicians are dependent on using some theory, so theory is helpful so long as it's balanced with ear. Then you get all triggered and start posting compulsively, neurotically for 25 pages on end, trying to revise history that the greats really just heard everything up, start straw manning and insulting that I just want to theorize and not play actual music, and get all personal to assert your false narrative.

If you are telling the truth, why must you be so unpleasant about it? Calling another member of this forum a 'retard' is offensive to all who have mentally handicapped people in their lives.

[Christian Miller]

There’s a couple of articles there I wouldn’t mind reading. I wonder if I can track down a pdf on the the internet?

[Christian Miller]

Re insenatez the G/B Bbmaj7 is pretty unusual. I usually just play chord tones there.

interpreting G7/B as related to Bo7 also makes sense. First inversion triads, first inversion dominant and diminished seventh chords are all functionally extremely similar. The dim also subs for the third inversion dominant which descends by a half step.

So for a typical chromatic descent bass line progression (No Moon At All) we might have these chords

Dm A7/C# D7/C G7/B Gm/B
which can be subbed with
Dm C#o7 Co7 Bo7 Gm

Insensatez preserves the G7/B and slightly modifies the third chord to a Cm6. The Gm/Bb becomes the closely related Bbmaj7

Dm9 C#o7 Cm6 G7/B Bbmaj7

You could see that as a chord that bridges the key of Dm and Bb by including the Eb. Or you could see it as part of a chromatic inner line that goes F-E-Eb-D-D

These progressions (derived from the chromatically descending bassline called lamento which is common in both jazz and classical music) often defy easy functional analysis and come from counterpoint really.

Some people drive a truck through it and pretend it’s a Dm-G7-Cm-F7-Bb. I don’t really like this very much as I don’t think it has much to do with the song. Tbh I would focus on

Dm A Cm G Bb for the basics

[Christian Miller]

I don't know Christian because I haven't looked on the internet.

I was not really asking, just wondering

[rpjazzguitar]

Re insenatez the G/B Bbmaj7 is pretty unusual. I usually just play chord tones there.


Dm9 C#o7 Cm6 G7/B Bbmaj7

sics

I like Db Bb E A for the second chord. A rootless C13/b9?

Or maybe Db F C E.

[Christian Miller]

I like Db Bb E A for the second chord. A rootless C13/b9?

Or maybe Db F C E.

Yeah dim7 can sometimes be a bit like ‘hello! Dim7!’ It’s such a distinctive sound it can call attention to itself. And then everything ends up sounding like gypsy jazz (or 19th century harmony.)

Yes, I use the first choice a lot. Theoretically I would respell the Dbs as C#s. So the first as C# Bb E A which is an A(add b9) quadratonic as Jordan would call it. No idea if this is ‘canonical’ or not lol. Pitch or note? Who gives a flying fillet of fish provided you can hear it and play it.

Anyway work very nicely. You would then play a G(add9) qudratonic on the G/B… so

Dmadd9 Aaddb9 Cm6 Gadd9 Dmadd11

if I was using a four note structure on each chord, would probably be my vanilla choice. Dmadd4 excellent sounding choice on Bbmaj7 btw, common with Metheny, Chico Pinheiro etc. you can also use Dm pent/blues. Not playing sevenths in the chords/arps anywhere except implying over the Bb. Sounds smoothly melodic.

sometimes it’s cooler to leave out one of the guide tones than to play seventh chords all the time.

i haven’t actually tried the second.I think the C would sound like a lower neighbour to C#, the sort of thing you get a lot in bop lines on 7b9s and dim7s

[Christian Miller]

incidentally if you play Insensatez as a waltz it sounds like a Bal Musette Waltz from 1930s Paris. (Esp if you make a few subtle chord subs)

Also that Bbmaj7 should probably by more like Bb6 so Gm/Bb is a more vanilla choice (ie ‘in the song’ rather than some extra jazz nonsense). Maybe Gmadd9 there.

[mr. beaumont]

incidentally if you play Insensatez as a waltz it sounds like a Bal Musette Waltz from 1930s Paris. (Esp if you make a few subtle chord subs)
.

Kinda works for any minor key bossa, doesn't it?

[ragman1]

The theory can be talked about endlessly.
... but I am interested in another matter.
Artist's charisma.
How is it that someone plays a jazz tune and I like it from the very beginning?
What does this have to do with theory?
Is it more about jazz talent than jazz theory?
for example;
There are some students who go together for jazz theory class.
They all play nice, but only one of them convinces me in playing jazz.

Good post. Exactly right.

[ragman1]

incidentally if you play Insensatez as a waltz it sounds like a Bal Musette Waltz from 1930s Paris. (Esp if you make a few subtle chord subs).

Sorry, but playing Insensatez as a waltz would totally destroy it. What would happen if you took a Bal Musette waltz and played it as a bossa? Don't all rush off to try it :-)

[Christian Miller]

Kinda works for any minor key bossa, doesn't it?

yes!

[Christian Miller]

Sorry, but playing Insensatez as a waltz would totally destroy it. What would happen if you took a Bal Musette waltz and played it as a bossa? Don't all rush off to try it :-)

Fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa
Aeeeyaaai!

That is what would happen.