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I really enjoyed Jack's post on this forum.
I learned theory in 3 months and why should I be mad at theory.
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03-29-2023 11:01 AM
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You were faster than me.
He's saying the thread could easily go on for 24 more pages if the posters had complexes about theory... presumably the same complexes which are informing their posts now (in his opinion).
Which in turn implies that he does not have these complexes, it's everyone else who has them.
This interpretation subject to correction, naturally :-)
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Who's Jack?
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Oh, that Jack. I'd forgotten about him.
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Hey guys, what are we arguing about?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by kris
a related group of emotionally significant ideas that are completely or partly repressed and that cause psychic conflict leading to abnormal mental states or behavior.
That's you guys. Embodying false premises creates inner conflict resulting in irrational behavior. All I do is tell the truth that on the whole the greats use theory and most average musicians are dependent on using some theory, so theory is helpful so long as it's balanced with ear. Then you get all triggered and start posting compulsively, neurotically for 25 pages on end, trying to revise history that the greats really just heard everything up, start straw manning and insulting that I just want to theorize and not play actual music, and get all personal to assert your false narrative.
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That's you guys. Embodying false premises creates inner conflict resulting in irrational behavior. All I do is tell the truth that on the whole the greats use theory and most average musicians are dependent on using some theory, so theory is helpful so long as it's balanced with ear. Then you get all triggered and start posting compulsively, neurotically for 25 pages on end, trying to revise history that the greats really just heard everything up, start straw manning and insulting that I just want to theorize and not play actual music, and get all personal to assert your false narrative.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Originally Posted by kris
Page 24 of this thing, the freakin guy says ' theory books for sale ' -LOL
kris, I like you man. Maybe you didn't mean it to be this funny, but in the middle of THIS thread, it sure struck me that way
On another note:
A guy I work with took up guitar a year ago. He knows I play and told me early on " I'm NOT going to learn theory". I said " that's okay, the longer you go - more you learn, you'll end up knowing some. A few months ago he talked to me about practicing scales. I asked " what scale ?", he said " I don't know" and added " I suppose that's sad, I should know what scale "
.... I wonder if I was wrong about him automatically learning some theory ?? ....
..and another thing:
I'm working on How Insensitive. In one part I'm playing C-6,9 to G9/B to Bbmaj7, I'm playing a D7 arpeggio over that G9. I can't make sense of that, other that some lose relation to the G/B being B diminished and the D being the same chord.......
Do you guys have logical answer to why this works, something I can take to other tunes ??
...maybe I'm not mad enough for this thread ??
-cheers,
Mike
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Originally Posted by mjo
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Originally Posted by mjo
I'm glad you can't make sense of D7 over G7. It's not sense and I don't know where you got it from. So I can't provide any logic for it, sorry!
The tune basically goes
Dm - A7 - Cm - G7
That's all, two minors followed by their V chords. So D minor and C minor. You can find the notes that fit, it's not difficult.
something I can take to other tunes ??
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Originally Posted by mjo
First, play through and insert a Ddim7 passing chord between the Bm7b5 and the Bbmaj7.
Notice that it sounds good.
Now just play back and forth between the D7 and Ddim7 and notice the parallel half-step slide of everything except the D.
Notice how that slide sounds good.
Now play from the beginning and between the Bm7b5 and the Bbmaj7 insert the slide from D7 into Ddim7.
Notice that all this sounds good.
What happens if you leave out all that additional stuff (no slide, no passing chord) just soloing D7?
A lot of soloing moves are head fakes that get the attentive listener to anticipate and fill harmonic context that you just suggest without actually doing it. When you solo D7 you are implying a move into a Ddim7 passing chord to Bbmaj7.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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There’s a couple of articles there I wouldn’t mind reading. I wonder if I can track down a pdf on the the internet?
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Re insenatez the G/B Bbmaj7 is pretty unusual. I usually just play chord tones there.
interpreting G7/B as related to Bo7 also makes sense. First inversion triads, first inversion dominant and diminished seventh chords are all functionally extremely similar. The dim also subs for the third inversion dominant which descends by a half step.
So for a typical chromatic descent bass line progression (No Moon At All) we might have these chords
Dm A7/C# D7/C G7/B Gm/B
which can be subbed with
Dm C#o7 Co7 Bo7 Gm
Insensatez preserves the G7/B and slightly modifies the third chord to a Cm6. The Gm/Bb becomes the closely related Bbmaj7
Dm9 C#o7 Cm6 G7/B Bbmaj7
You could see that as a chord that bridges the key of Dm and Bb by including the Eb. Or you could see it as part of a chromatic inner line that goes F-E-Eb-D-D
These progressions (derived from the chromatically descending bassline called lamento which is common in both jazz and classical music) often defy easy functional analysis and come from counterpoint really.
Some people drive a truck through it and pretend it’s a Dm-G7-Cm-F7-Bb. I don’t really like this very much as I don’t think it has much to do with the song. Tbh I would focus on
Dm A Cm G Bb for the basicsLast edited by Christian Miller; 03-30-2023 at 03:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Or maybe Db F C E.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yes, I use the first choice a lot. Theoretically I would respell the Dbs as C#s. So the first as C# Bb E A which is an A(add b9) quadratonic as Jordan would call it. No idea if this is ‘canonical’ or not lol. Pitch or note? Who gives a flying fillet of fish provided you can hear it and play it.
Anyway work very nicely. You would then play a G(add9) qudratonic on the G/B… so
Dmadd9 Aaddb9 Cm6 Gadd9 Dmadd11
if I was using a four note structure on each chord, would probably be my vanilla choice. Dmadd4 excellent sounding choice on Bbmaj7 btw, common with Metheny, Chico Pinheiro etc. you can also use Dm pent/blues. Not playing sevenths in the chords/arps anywhere except implying over the Bb. Sounds smoothly melodic.
sometimes it’s cooler to leave out one of the guide tones than to play seventh chords all the time.
i haven’t actually tried the second.I think the C would sound like a lower neighbour to C#, the sort of thing you get a lot in bop lines on 7b9s and dim7s
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incidentally if you play Insensatez as a waltz it sounds like a Bal Musette Waltz from 1930s Paris. (Esp if you make a few subtle chord subs)
Also that Bbmaj7 should probably by more like Bb6 so Gm/Bb is a more vanilla choice (ie ‘in the song’ rather than some extra jazz nonsense). Maybe Gmadd9 there.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Aeeeyaaai!
That is what would happen.
Free Western Swing recording
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