The official mad-at-theory thread

[Christian Miller]

If you have a G13 moving toward Cmajor and you decide to make it a G13b9, you play an Ab instead of an A. It's an adjustment of one note from the Cmajor scale or, if you prefer, G mixolydian. So, playing from this pool of 7 notes (white keys except A becomes Ab) seems like no big deal.

And yet, it has it's own name, "fifth mode C harmonic major" or something. And history.

One of my teachers would just say "play a G13b9 scale".

Or it’s a common alteration to the C major key (flat 6). A borrowed note from C minor. Or the Barry Harris maj-6 dim scale, and so on.

each interpretation gives a different avenue to explore.

in Django’s case iirc he really does play a melody using the D harmonic major notes, esp that specific tetrachord A-Bb-C#-D (at least I remember him doing that… it was a while.) it stuck in my head because it’s unusual, because while b6’s have been common in major keys since the 1700s, the aug 2nd leap b6->7 remains unusual in melodies in this context. At least it seems so from the stuff I’ve checked out.

EDIT I think it’s this version

In any case you can find Django up to all sorts of stuff on record…

[Bobby Timmons]

Jimmy - You should read Christian's #461. He can give me a headache but on this occasion thank god he knows his stuff. I hope he won't mind if I extract a bit from his post:

'Django? Now Django it is understood had no formal music theory. And yet his music often can be analysed in terms of quite interesting theory. For instance he plays a harmonic major over a 13b9 chord in Manoir de Mes Reves. He didn’t know what a harmonic major scale was, or a 13b9 chord. I’ve had a forum member (Reg) say that this scale wasn’t taught in jazz edu until the late 70s (IIRC). The term is alien to classical theory afaik.

so it becomes an interesting philosophical question. What does it mean to say so and so used such and such? Can Django be said to have used the harmonic major when he had no idea what it was? '

I'm sure you'll have an answer to it but it's not so easily explained. Like ghosts :-)

There's a spectrum of theory vs intuition/ear/aural skills. It's safe to say that Django was probably at the extreme end. He may have known zero theory, he may have picked up some knowledge from his peers. But I wouldn't dispute that he was coming up with crap that he absolutely did not get from a theory book as he was illiterate right? lol

[Bobby Timmons]

The problem is that the Saxophonist got the book as a gift from a musician who studied at a very famous jazz school.
He had no interest in jazz theory at that time.
He was only interested in playing, that was his main method of learning.
At the jam session, he played solos after 30 choruses.Without end.
Was it good?
Not really ... he was looking for sounds and he collaborated with the rhythm section.
He was learning the essence of jazz.Team play - mutual listening and inspiration.
That was the beginning.
Years later, he began to play brilliantly with great intuition and musicality.
It's all and there's no philosophy in it.
I'm not sure he's actually interested in jazz theory.
Can I add 'smile' or is that forbidden...?

I believe you about your friend knowing either zero theory or a tad but ultimately relying on his musical intuition. He sounds great, like Stan Getz on alto. Just be reasonable. I almost never post stuff that isn't true, and if I am off base, I'm willing to reconcile. I got mad that you kept putting words in my mouth that I'm only concerned with theory at the expense of actual music. You don't need to act a fool just because someone tells the truth about theory, just have a discussion without resorting to starting conflict every single page. By the way I am 37.

[Bobby Timmons]

BTW Stan Getz played tenor sax.

That's why I said Stan Getz "on alto". Give it a rest with the superiority and maybe actually read what I write.

[ragman1]

coming up with crap

I didn't say it was crap.

[Bobby Timmons]

Lol

[rpjazzguitar]

Or it’s a common alteration to the C major key (flat 6). A borrowed note from C minor. Or the Barry Harris maj-6 dim scale, and so on.

each interpretation gives a different avenue to explore.

in Django’s case iirc he really does play a melody using the D harmonic major notes, esp that specific tetrachord A-Bb-C#-D (at least I remember him doing that… it was a while.) it stuck in my head because it’s unusual, because while b6’s have been common in major keys since the 1700s, the aug 2nd leap b6->7 remains unusual in melodies in this context. At least it seems so from the stuff I’ve checked out.

EDIT I think it’s this version

In any case you can find Django up to all sorts of stuff on record…

I'm fairly sure that there's a gap in my education about using different avenues to explore.

The way I have generally seen it is that G13b9 goes with all white keys except lower A to Ab. That leaves 5 notes, one of which is the A you're trying to avoid. The other four are the remaining black keys. Db Eb Gb and Bb. I notice that it's an Ebm7, not that I've ever applied that observation. If you have a b9, the #9 is probably going to work. Two are the neighbors of the fifth. The other is the maj7, which is not a note I plan for against a dominant, although it can certainly work in the right hands.

I do know that 7b9 is related to diminished and I can play different b3 intervals. So, maybe I know that avenue to explore. Knowing that it's harmonic major tells me nothing useful, although that could be due to a knowledge gap.

So, I'm trying to think of a melody. I know the chord tones. I know the background scale (white keys exc Ab). I know the sound of the altered fifths and #9. So I know what will sound easily consonant, uneasily consonant, tense and too-far-out-for-my-level-of-ability.

How do I turn this into more "avenues to explore" while still maintaining a focus on melody?

I probably should have mentioned short attention span.

[Litterick]

Baroque composers did not have a theory of functional harmony. From 17th and early 18th century sources we know they learned counterpoint and thorough bass.

Nadia Boulanger's students learned counterpoint; didn't do them any harm. Just saying.

[Bobby Timmons]

I thought your clip of what is this thing called love was played on alto. Anyway, your friend's finesse sounds like Stan Getz whatever instrument it was.

[gcb]

Nadia Boulanger's students learned counterpoint; didn't do them any harm. Just saying.

Among them Astor Piazzolla, who studied classical composition including counterpoint with Nadia Boulanger at the Fontainebleu Conservatory.

[Litterick]

Among them Astor Piazzolla, who studied classical composition including counterpoint with Nadia Boulanger at the Fontainebleu Conservatory.

Yes, and, among others, Daniel Barenboim, Lennox Berkeley, Elliott Carter, Aaron Copland, John Eliot Gardiner, Philip Glass, Roy Harris, Quincy Jones, Igor Markevitch, Virgil Thomson and George Walker.

[pauln]

I have a question for the active participants of the discussion/Christian,Ragman,Jimmy and othres/ :
Is it possible to determine the level of jazz theoretical knowledge of individual musicians based on the recordings I have posted /saxophonist,blind pianist,guitarist-me/,violinist/?
I mean jazz theoretical knowledge/theory from jazz books, jazz schools etc-jazz education/.
I am not talking about the assessment of playing and theoretical analysis of jazz playing.
I mean a specific answer: yes or not.
ps.
I inform you in advance that I am 68 years old.

There are a few very popular method books and jazz schools that get mentioned here continuously. I think the authors of those books could tell if a musician's playing revealed study and influence of their books. Similarly the teachers of the schools might recognize the sound of their curriculum. Those in this forum that teach jazz tend to have these books (and/or been through the schools) and might also hear particular book/school methods' influence in musicians' playing.
I'm leaning toward "yes".

[Christian Miller]

I have a question for the active participants of the discussion/Christian,Ragman,Jimmy and othres/ :
Is it possible to determine the level of jazz theoretical knowledge of individual musicians based on the recordings I have posted /saxophonist,blind pianist,guitarist-me/,violinist/?
I mean jazz theoretical knowledge/theory from jazz books, jazz schools etc-jazz education/.
I am not talking about the assessment of playing and theoretical analysis of jazz playing.
I mean a specific answer: yes or not.
ps.
I inform you in advance that I am 68 years old.

I don’t know really…. Maybe? Your friend sounds like a melodic improviser like Art Pepper etc and I know Art said he didn’t know much theory. That tradition of playing tends to be less theory based. Same with a very vocab based licks player.

I can’t say a player who works this way doesn’t know theory for sure, but I do know from experience that it’s not necessary to know much if any theory to play this way.

If someone is blasting out loads of complicated scale patterns that suggests a more theoretical or schooled approach to me. There’s definitely a chord scale way to solo which sounds a certain way, for instance. So those players sound ‘theoretical.’

[Christian Miller]

Nadia Boulanger's students learned counterpoint; didn't do them any harm. Just saying.

Indeed. I read a book that suggested the Paris conservatoire continued the 18th century tradition into the 20th century. And Boulanger came up from that as did Debussy, Ravel etc. which is it say that basically there was a difference in the French and German ways of doing things.

The US syllabus is more influenced by the Germans in general if I’m not mistaken despite the fact that all the Americans seemed to go to study with Boulanger haha. Or perhaps that’s why they went... I think there’s a bit of French influence in the UK though for instance the ABRSM theory syllabus.

Apparently Boulanger was keen on students playing things at the piano, not just writing on paper. So it had a practical element.

this is different approach and tradition AFAIK to Fuxian species counterpoint which is what people usually mean by ‘studying counterpoint’.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have a question for the active participants of the discussion/Christian,Ragman,Jimmy and othres/ :
Is it possible to determine the level of jazz theoretical knowledge of individual musicians based on the recordings I have posted /saxophonist,blind pianist,guitarist-me/,violinist/?
I mean jazz theoretical knowledge/theory from jazz books, jazz schools etc-jazz education/.
I am not talking about the assessment of playing and theoretical analysis of jazz playing.
I mean a specific answer: yes or not.
ps.
I inform you in advance that I am 68 years old.

I think I might be right more often than wrong basing it on comping as well as soloing.

My idea, untested of course, is that if I hear unexpected harmonic movement which isn't all that musical (subjective judgement, of course) and it's played with what sounds like scale running rather than licks or melody, then I'm going to guess theorist.

For intermediate players, maybe even advanced players, I think I'd be right a lot. But, for the top players, who have absorbed and transcended theory, I think I'd be lucky to guess at chance levels.

[ragman1]

I have a question for the active participants of the discussion/Christian,Ragman,Jimmy and othres/ :
Is it possible to determine the level of jazz theoretical knowledge of individual musicians based on the recordings I have posted /saxophonist,blind pianist,guitarist-me/,violinist/?
I mean jazz theoretical knowledge/theory from jazz books, jazz schools etc-jazz education/.
I am not talking about the assessment of playing and theoretical analysis of jazz playing.
I mean a specific answer: yes or not.
ps.
I inform you in advance that I am 68 years old.

Short answer: no.

The player may have copied what he was playing, got it from a friend, worked it out himself, heard it on a recording, anything you like. There's insufficient evidence that anything played was learnt from books or a college, etc. He might know the technical terms for his note-choices but equally he might not. And there are many players that we know very well who have not. We keep talking about them here! By the way, Stan Getz was another one, it's on his Wiki page.

(Now I'll look at what the others have written because I deliberately haven't looked at them yet).

[ragman1]

Huh, not much to see! It's all a bit vague, understandably. Actually, I've just thought that there are certainly some younger players who do sound/look as though they've got some of their moves from a source like a college. You can tell, they have that 'studied' feel about it. Christian said that, I think.

But they tend to be the modern players and we know most of them went to Berklee or studied with x,y,z. With the older guys it's not the same, predictably. It wasn't de rigueur to have gone to Berklee or somewhere else. They learned their stuff on the road or by incessant practicing, and so on. It has quite a different feel, and I'm not sure I don't prefer it. Good jazz doesn't have to be super-technical at all.

By the way, here we go:

'According to Getz, he only had about six months of lessons and never studied music theory or harmony.'

Stan Getz - Wikipedia

[dot75]

Gary Burton (whose first touring gig was with Getz - he stayed for a couple of years & ended
up being Getz's tour manager) says Getz would often pause to hear the next chord played
during solos. He may not have been able to name 'em but knew which 'pool of notes' to pick
from when he heard the them. (GB's phrase)

[pauln]

They are all educated in classical music. What we all had in common was that we were self-taught jazz musicians.

Really, explains so much!
'Twas mine own path too

[Bobby Timmons]

Nothing mad to contribute, carry on.

[Christian Miller]

I can continue.
The violinist was telling me how his lesson with the top player looked like.
You have to take into account the context of the times in which we lived in the 1970s and 1980s.
Once he signed up for the so-called "Jazz Workshop" with top-players.
Being at a meeting with a top-player, he heard:
"I heard you at the jam session.You are this violin player. You play great on violin so let's go for a drink."
He said this lesson-meeting lasted 15 minutes.
I will only add that the violin is a rare instrument in jazz and very difficult to master.
In the 2000s, I accidentally heard my violinist- friend playing the piano in a jazz-caffe..
It surprised me very much - he played excellent standards - piano solo.

TBH some of the most helpful info I’ve got has been from having a pint with an experienced musician. For instance, one guy an ECM recording artist… made me realise that’s it’s just kind of hard to get gigs. For everyone. That actually helped, and made me feel less negative. I learned a lot more over the course of that pint, but that was one thing that really helped me.

That’s more useful than being told what scale to put on what chord or something, which is public domain info anyone can access for free.

Education is not about the exchange of info on a syllabus. That’s merely the bit we can measure, the necessary box to tick for accreditation etc. Mentorship has always been really important to jazz, but this is not the same thing as pedagogy. I’m not sure pedagogy has ever been that important in jazz; jazzers have always been very self directed learners and that’s kind of expected actually. Even in Barry’s class the onus was on players to take what they could from the session. It wasn’t like he was spelling everything out in easy steps.

go for a lesson with a big cheese jazz musican and the first thing they’ll ask you is ‘what do you want to know?’ You can’t be passive.

I do think there is something of a worked out syllabus or program at places like Berklee (a friend who attended ranked the teaching to be excellent) but I think it’s a mistake to conclude that this is what makes players. The real players often show up already being able to play to a high level, and college is an opportunity to make connections.

If I was doing it again, I think I’d seek out a mentor early on. That was my biggest error (the other one being over focussing on theory.)

[Litterick]

The modern college values, above all, a student's ability to pay the fees.

[ragman1]

Did you know that one of the best musicians in Europe played by ear.
Notes didn't interest him too much either.
I knew him very well and we often talked together.
This play with a big heart and emotions is not uncommon.
He loved Ben Webster and he listened to John Coltrane records mostly.
Uncle Tom...:

I liked him a lot, not boring. He has a Wiki page in English. He died in 2012 after being hounded constantly by the Russians. I don't know why they didn't like him so much. Not good. Do you know why they wouldn't leave him alone?

[Christian Miller]

The modern college values, above all, a student's ability to pay the fees.

It also wants to attract talented musicians who it can stick on the prospectus whether or not they actually graduate :-)

[ragman1]

Where did they write that?
russians?...no.
He had a brain hemorrhage.
The poor guy couldn't play and was dying in a nursing home.
He loved to play the saxophone and couldn't do it because of his health.
He was a very nice man and liked to joke.I went on tour with him in the 80s.
He was playing with his quartet and I was playing with another band.
We were driven by the same bus.Polish "Coltrane"...:

It says it here:

Tomasz Szukalski - Wikipedia

I didn't mean to imply that the Russians killed him, only that they apparently pursued him very unpleasantly ('Szukalski lost his father's home (occupied by soviet invaders)... the soviet provocations, invigilation and robberies didn't stop... after one such visit Tomasz's driving licence was revoked').

I was just wondering if you knew why they did this to him. It doesn't say he was political. Maybe something to do with his father.