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Originally Posted by Litterick
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03-24-2023 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kris
2.Do musicians playing in Big Band need theoretical or more practical knowledge?
I mean, musicians who are not soloists-improvisers and play wind instruments.
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Bill knew a crapload of theory since he was able to do all that complex stuff with inner voices almost like a full blown classical piece. Not possible winging it.
Cobain knew some base theory but likely didn't come up with his creative parts of root movement, chord quality, and melody by thinking it all up theory wise, he probably used base theory and then just his raw talent or music experience to be creative.
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Yes it is an explanation. No, you can't always pinpoint the exact amount.
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When I'm listening to someone I don't want to hear any theory. It gets interesting when I hear something I like and then, when I figure it out, I realize that it's more complicated than I thought. But that original experience of receiving the music through my ears, I'm not analyzing it for theory. I don't think that more complicated means better.
Now if I'm playing with someone I am also analyzing what they're doing and how I fit in, but that's a different thing than just listening as an audience member.
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Complicated isn't always better, but complicated and good usually (always) means they used some theory to construct it. No, you don't want the music to sound like raw theory (duh).
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Jimmy -
This from Kris today:
It gets interesting
Show this on the example of recordings, e.g. Ragman.
Explain to me your assessment method.
Here are the changes:
BbM7#11 - A7#9 - Dm9/Db7 - Cm7/F7b9
BbM7 - A7b13 - Dm69 - E7#9
Am9 - Dm9
Go ahead, take it apart. You have my permission. Strut your stuff :-)
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
(no CST involved, it's just a question of whether the notes fit the changes)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Okay. I think if he had a good ear and knew his jazz sounds it could be done. Why not?
But you know what will happen, that same old question will return again. If what he's playing is theoretically good but he doesn't know it, is he playing with theory?
... ping-pong...
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Originally Posted by kris
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99% of the time, musicians who know zero theory will suck ballz and not be able to play anything useful. Some musicians learn mostly by ear but then end up playing along basic theoretical lines anyway. Some musicians are more talented ear wise and then get good and probably pick up some theory along the way. Very few musicians are truly feral, know zero theory, and sound great.
There's a guy on my other forum who went on a tantrum trying to take over the forum that he's the best metal guitarist ever and he doesn't need theory. He sux ballz. He twiddles his fingers around somewhat with respect to the tonal center - he ended up playing by theory even though he says he's so against it, and does a poor job of it.
People are lazy and greedy (and corrupt). If not learning anything and becoming a good musician were such a viable pathway, everyone would do it. But almost noone is like that. The numbers speak for themselves.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
But what if they've never studied theory, only listened to what others play? And those others maybe have studied theory. So, in imitating those others, theory is being implemented without their knowing it.
Are they then not using theory? Obviously not, and I'll tell you why. A parrot can copy human speech, whole phrases of it. Are you saying the parrot can speak language and knows the grammar, syntax, and all that? Of course not.
Likewise the person who imitates by ear. No?
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Originally Posted by kris
(See, I told you this would come up)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
pauln says he learned by ear and he prefers to focus on the aural approach now. But then he also knows everything about theory too. So where are all these great feral musicians? We should be able to find one if being feral is such a superior method.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Very few musicians are truly feral, know zero theory, and sound great.
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Any thread where a participant can say ‘read post #391’ is probably beyond saving tbh.
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There's the good old story of the visitor to a foreign land armed with a phrase book. He stops a local and asks, with perfect pronunciation, 'Where is the Post Office?'
The local smiles broadly and begins to tell him how to get to the Post Office... and the poor visitor can't understand a word of it :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Aebersold complete - streaming
Today, 02:59 PM in Improvisation