The official mad-at-theory thread

[JimmyDunlop]

I think this guy is distracting the main topic of the thread on purpose? on purpose or not ,but we are getting distracted, so I decided to put him on my blocklist, tired of wasting time reading and comment over his stuff. So from now and on Ragman is in my blocklist

[Bobby Timmons]

Thought you might like that one, Jimmy :-)

His website's good too.

Good playing. I picked up on those modal voicings recently. The teacher in the lesson I watched said you just stack 4ths in the mode you're using without regard for what would be the root. Gives a more ambiguous sound. I also liked his sneaky lines.

[supersoul]

Same album as the Footprints posted above, another blues Wayne Shorter style. Instead of going to the IV they go down to the bVII. Cool ass turnaround. Entire album is fire all the way through.

[Ab7#9] x8

[Gb7#9] x4 [Ab7#9] x4

[Ab-7] [Db7] [Bb-7] [Eb7#9] [Ab7#9] x4

fucking theory!

[Bobby Timmons]

Stop effing up footprints lol.

[mr. beaumont]

Even the real Book has it "right" now...

[rpjazzguitar]

This isn't anti-theory, but it is anti-nomenclature.

Here are some variations on a G dominant chord. Each variation of a note or two dramatically changes the name of the scale.

G7#11, all white keys but raise C to C#: G Lydian dominant, Dmelmin

G7b9, all white keys but Ab instead of A: GHW? B Dorian b2: Fdimlyd

G7b9#9, all white keys except Ab instead of A and add a Bb: Fmelmin

G7b13, all white keys with an Eb instead of E: 5th mode C melmin

G7b9b13, all white keys with Ab instead of A and Eb instead of E: 5th mode C harmonic minor

G7#11b9, all white keys but C# instead of C and Ab instead of A: Close to C#HW, but not exact. The on-line scale finder lists 6 names, including 2 enharmonic equivalents.

Galt white keys, but, Ab and Bb instead of A: Db and Eb instead of D. 7th mode Abmelmin

I expect that somebody will point out that I haven’t used the exact correct notes, or that there are other scales that make more sense. No argument. I’m not at all sure that I’ve gotten them all right. But, whatever the exact notes should be isn’t it still easier to say “play the (chord name here) scale”? This way, you relate the chord right to the scale with no extra thought.

[ragman1]

Exactly. You see, even those musicians in that video argue about the t/around! There are already several threads here on this subject:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/sear...archid=2491473

That was the point of my clip, to discuss that. It had nothing to do with 'Let's see who can play Wayne Shorter tunes'. For goodness' sake! Christian introduced it first with his video.

And I wasn't trying to be clever when I said it's fairly easy. Once the t/a is clarified and the pentatonics are clear (Gm for Cm, Cm for Fm) it's not so difficult. It's only difficult when the tune isn't clear in the mind, that's all.

Don't be nasty or lose your temper with me. Discuss, be rational.

[ragman1]

Let's take a piece based on one chord...eg Cissy Strut-you should know it.
It seems very simple at first glance.
But to play a solo on one chord you need to have a lot of knowledge.
I'm talking about advanced playing here, not about playing the pentatonic/where children can do it/.
This is one thing and the other is solo construction.
You must have the ability to build tension in the solo you play.
How to do it to interest the listener?
A musician who plays in front of an audience needs to make some kind of connection with the listener.
He has to use different means.
For me there is no such thing - an easy tune.
Yes, the theme of the tune is easy, but it has nothing to do with advanced improvisation.
Besides, you don't need any theory to play the theme itself.
Can't get any clearer.

Thank you. It's clear!

Of course I know what you're saying. Even on a tune with very simple chords, or one chord, it depends on the skill of the player. They either play very basic stuff or, if they're very skilled, do amazing things. I know that.

Part of that, as you say, is solo construction, building it up. I understand it. Believe me, I know exactly what you're talking about.

I did actually cover this in a post I wrote before. I said:

Of course, how really good it is depends on the quality of the player. But in itself it's not a hard tune.

The official mad-at-theory thread

So I understand about levels of skill and performance.

You know, if I can say something, I've never made any claims about myself. I know how good or bad I am, I don't have to be told. To be honest, I just get round a tune. I've never said I'm some kind of great player or anything like that. Other people have put some ideas on me, some good, some bad, but it's not relevant, I don't bother with it.

So I understand when you say there's no such thing as an easy tune. It's as 'easy' as one makes it. But the structure of a tune can be simple, like Cissy Strut or a hundred other tunes. After that, it's what one makes of it.

With Footprints, as I said, I consider the structure simple. I think we'd both agree to that. It's just a minor blues, two chords and a fancy turnaround. But it needs a certain approach. We could just play it as a minor blues in a bluesy way but that's not what the tune is about. It's not really what Shorter wrote.

He wrote it as a modal piece, right? Floating sounds and dissonance on the turnaround. And it's quite difficult to get from the turnaround back to Cm.... etc, etc.

For an intermediate player it's confusing unless he knows how to produce those floating sounds and negotiate the turnaround. But once he's grasped the basic idea, then he can go to town on the improv if he has the skills.

So that's all. Will that do?

[Christian Miller]

Counter argument …. I’ve heard a lot of cats play clever stuff on Cissy Strut, none of them were cool as Leo Noncentelli. Sco gets closest of the jazzers.

Maybe a bad example as that’s one of the all time pentatonic riffs much abused by jazz students everywhere. It is a key vehicle for the dreaded Berklee Funk.

Mea culpa tbf, but women were dancing and I wanted to impress them with my Super Hip Outside Fusion Hot Licks.

it didn’t work

[SandChannel]

Counter argument …. I’ve heard a lot of cats play clever stuff on Cissy Strut, none of them were cool as Leo Noncentelli. Sco gets closest of the jazzers.

Maybe a bad example as that’s one of the all time pentatonic riffs much abused by jazz students everywhere. It is a key vehicle for the dreaded Berklee Funk.

Mea culpa tbf, but women were dancing and I wanted to impress them with my Super Hip Outside Fusion Hot Licks.

it didn’t work

No one can top Leo - but if you want to see someone that really gets into that groove deep, you should check out some of the live cuts with Trombone Shorty. Obviously, he is not a guitar player, but he can teach us a thing or two.

[ccroft]

Ears and Theory are all in your head. To really play this stuff you need to add in a bit of liver and spleen, and of course a healthy dose of heart. Involving some of the nether regions can help from time to time.

Maybe that's why wind players have a leg up on everybody else. They have to use lungs. Helps 'em get out of the head and into the body. Learning to dance is good for that too.

[pauln]

In spite of people getting overzealous or a bit reckless in how they may refer to events as tonic, tonic center, tone center, tonal center, pitch center, local key, key change, and modulation where some of those subtle differences in terminology indicate distinctions between tonality and atonality (or post tonality), I must come to the defense of Cissy Strut and denounce the injurious libel that it's a "one chord song". Of the two main thematic lines, the first actually implies a repeated series through i - bIII - i - I - bVII - V and the second implies a repeated I - bVII - I.

There's lots to work with here. One way to push it into something special is to chromatically move it up to Eb for a verse or two (lots of nice things to play over the move itself) which subsequently invites exchanges between the minor and major implications of Eb and C), then slide back down to C. This is a fine modern popular song for adopting a Jazz style (C major, C minor, Eb major, and Eb minor are all flat keys if you call C major zero flats).

(Sco and Metheny should have modulated up to Ab)

[Christian Miller]

What is more difficult - improvising over simple bass riff or improvising over simple jazz standard?
What are the opinions of professional musicians on this topic?

I find playing on a standard easier but probably because I don’t do that many gigs where I solo on a vamp.

[Bobby Timmons]

Soloing over changes is harder. However soloing over a vamp still has its own unique challenges. And if you don't practice it, you won't be good at it. Still, I doubt it's harder to master playing over a vamp than changes.

[Tomcat]

Vamps vs stds: Both are difficult and easy in their own way. Chord changes give you directions about what notes or sets of notes to use at any moment of the solo. The problem can occur when the directions start to appear faster than your engine's (ear-brain-hands) processing power. On the vamp you can use all 12 notes but you need to produce your own ideas and directions on how to organize them.

[Tomcat]

Question:
do you have experience with singers?
Some of them sing beautifully and do not know that there is a theory.
Maybe they don't even know the chords.
Just ears and musicality.
Are they mad at theory?

Singers don't need so much theory because theory is gathered knowledge about "what-when-why sounds good". When singing you train you musical ears all the time so you very quickly know what sounds good when.

[Christian Miller]

Singers don't need so much theory because theory is gathered knowledge about "what-when-why sounds good". When singing you train you musical ears all the time so you very quickly know what sounds good when.

quite a few singers played piano you know…

[Christian Miller]

It is sure that if someone specializes in playing standards, choose the standard.
And if someone plays vamps a lot - he will choose vamps.
...but I mean something else...whether the jazz standard is more "inspiring" for the improviser.
There are chords- functions flow that can make improvisation easier because it tells you a way.
Vamp doesn't have as much information as a jazz standard.It's usually one chord.

you do have to make your own fun

but that’s kind of a jazzer thing. Without wanting this come across as a criticism (certainly not of Sco) a few musicians I know who play non harmonic music (like Middle Eastern jazz) have pointed out Jazzers are addicted to harmony.

But the interesting thing it’s not necessary to be clever with harmony to play satisfying music on a vamp. I honestly think a lot jazz players are still stuck on changes even when they are playing on a single chord. It comes from a fear of being boring maybe. Or because they’ve been told that harmony = improvisation all the way up and that’s their main or only reference for making music.

I think if you have great feel you can get away with doing less harmonically. Sometimes it can feel like a cop out to superimpose the harmony… surely we should all be able to be inventive on a minor pentatonic for a long time by playing with other parameters?

Trane may have been the inventor of this stuff but he knew when to keep it mesmerisingly simple

The Middle Eastern thing is interesting for that. Just a drone! But then there are interesting things you can do with the Maqams… but it is melodic improv in that tradition.

[Christian Miller]

in fact in someways standards are more like vamps in some ways…. I’m trying to think of the commonalities more these days.

Rhythm changes A is kind of a vamp. Lester often approached tunes like Lady be Good a little bit like vamps. This came back into fashion in the 60s in a different way.

Outside playing is often just another way of saying ‘introducing movement’ that you have in a standard tune built in.

Btw you can superimpose changes in standards too. It’s fun to play one A sections changes over another.

Probably one could play a standard over a vamp and everyone would think it hip. Actually I must try that. Yesterdays on Cissy strut?

[grahambop]

Pat Martino did Oleo with a vamp on the ‘A’ sections, works well:

[grahambop]

Jerry Bergonzi’s Pentatonics book has a lot of useful ideas for using extended pentatonic patterns, these work well on vamps (why Coltrane and McCoy Tyner used them so much). I’ve been trying to get some of this stuff into my playing recently.

Also I think Pat Martino’s Linear Expressions is useful, those patterns are great for seeing how to get a long line going over one chord.

[Bobby Timmons]

Theory is important. But it's much more important to play concerts.

Not mutually exclusive.

[Il Magnifico]

[Bobby Timmons]

What are the keys to effective practice? organization, priority, discipline. Good stuff in that speech.

[ccroft]

I posted it before, but I feel it when I'm playing changes VS modal. Abercrombie on youtube teaching a class:

"Improvising on changes is like playing a straight line through a circle. Improvising modal is like playing a circle around a straight line."

The circle in changes is the changes: the band goes around in a circle. One thing I find satisfying is playing some motif that keeps going straight thru to some degree. A constant thought that pushes thru. Not talking about transposing a riff through the changes. More like a longer idea that runs through them. (Hard for me to explain in words...) I'm the straight line.

The straight line in modal is the band: they just keep pushing straight ahead. It's up to me to make music that has motif, variation, tension and resolution. I try to remember where I've been and reach back. I'm the circle.

I'm more comfortable doing the second thing since the bands I was in did more of that. I'm trying to get better at the first thing.