The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Posts 101 to 125 of 144
  1. #101

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    It is not about me. How would you explain BC and EF to children?
    ONCE UPON A TIME in a land far away a long time ago the king enjoyed the music of the musicians very much. They would come to his court and entertain him with wonderful songs, some of which became his favorites that he wanted to hear and enjoy every day. But, sometimes the musicians drank to much and were unable to make it to his court, or had done something bad and been placed in jail. There were other musicians, but they did not know how to play these very favorite songs, and a day without hearing his favorite songs made the king sad.

    One day the king determined he wanted to be happy every day and proclaimed to the musicians of the kingdom that he would give his beautiful daughter the princess in marriage to the musician that found a way for their songs to be played by any other musicians (in those days all the musicians were poor single men), the only warning being that they must not use any kind of magic!

    The musicians of the kingdom called a special union meeting to discuss how to proceed with the project and decided they would work on it together as a big team. At the successful conclusion of their efforts, they would arm wrestle to see which of them would wed the princess.

    The musicians started off by imagining that the method of sharing music would be something like writing, but maybe a little more mathematical. The first idea was to use lines with marks on them to represent the pitches, so each pitch would have its own line. However, the piano players pointed out that their pianos had eighty-eight pitches, and to represent their music parts with eighty-eight lines would be too hard to read, and too hard to manage because the paper would have to be so large. The next idea was to use both the lines and spaces between the lines, so the total number needed for the piano would be reduced by half, which was still a bit too much, but then someone suggested using an indication that the pitches shown should be played an octave or two above or below where written, and that was better still.

    It was the youngest of the musicians that came up with the final idea that really worked. He recommended that the lines and spaces not represent pitches at all, but something different (and almost bordering on magic, which the king had forbidden!). His idea was for the spaces and lines to represent a new kind of thing called a "note", which was very different from a pitch, for a note could actually represent the sound of two or three pitches if some little marks called accidentals appeared either at the beginning of the lines and spaces, or even right next to the marks on the lines and spaces if needed. The way he saw it, these notes would be defined as the lines and spaces themselves and given letter names.

    Now some of the older musicians were not too sure about this and complained that it might be kind of complicated, and might even be magic, and some of it did look a little like magic, which the king had forbidden! Fortunately, the youngest musician had held back a secret which he now showed them. He had noticed that virtually all the music they played was diatonic, and when diatonic scales were scored on a staff whose lines and spaces are chromatic, each scale appears as a diagonal row of marks but with two discontinuities or kinks in the diagonal line. Those kinks are where the diatonic scales have the two places where adjacent pitches are only a half step apart, like BC or EF in the C major scale. However, when the system of accidentals was employed as a key signature which informed each note (line or space) which pitch to sound, a wondrous (but not magical!) transformation occurs and those discontinuities or kinks all disappear, for all diatonic scales, in all keys!! The older musicians all recognized how easy this would make reading the marks (and reading ahead!), and everyone was so amazed by the youngest musician that they pronounced him the proper groom for the princess by acclamation.

    The youngest musician scored his own wedding music which was passed out and performed by all the musicians at the royal ceremony (except the ones unavailable because of drunkenness or in jail for fighting about theory), and the youngest musician, the princess, and the king lived happily ever after.
    Last edited by pauln; 02-07-2023 at 03:45 AM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

    User Info Menu

    Ngl Pauln that was a pretty high effort post. Probably more effort went into that than my usual lesson plan.

  4. #103

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Ngl Pauln that was a pretty high effort post. Probably more effort went into that than my usual lesson plan.

  5. #104

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    It is not about me. How would you explain BC and EF to children?
    Piano keyboard

  6. #105

    User Info Menu

    in Kodaly system both semitones are indicated by a pointing hand - thumb down for FA, finger pointing up for TI. This is an intuitive way of indicating the directionality of those semitone notes.

  7. #106

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Ngl Pauln that was a pretty high effort post. Probably more effort went into that than my usual lesson plan.
    Serious business (no magic!)

  8. #107

    User Info Menu

    I can see the point of Solfege for young children. They couldn't do staves and dots which would have no meaning for them. But if they sing do -re - mi - then each syllable will have its own sound.

    And if you wanted them to sing a chord then you could say to the first child 'Sing do' and ask the next child to sing mi. They'd find that sound in their head and hit it instantly. Likewise the next child with so. Put it all together and they'd be singing a nice C chord. And probably with a certain wonder at their own new-found skills.

    So I can see the point of it for young kids. But they'd have to fairly interested in singing and musical sounds. Which I suspect most kids are. I think that's the basis for it anyway so no objections there. It's probably a pretty good beginning in music for them.

    I also think that this beginning shouldn't be confined to the voice but is better combined with physical movement. There are systems for that, probably better than just Solfege by itself. And finding things to bang or make sounds with would complement it and be a starting point for learning an instrument.

    There, we've solved the problem of introducing music to little kids. I wouldn't have minded more of it myself. In fact, I may have done it but can't remember now. It's possible.

  9. #108

    User Info Menu

    You may think I've changed my tune (no pun intended) about this. I haven't. You can see from many comments here that some of you reacted very badly against Solfege and I suspect it was because you were too old at the time.

    Maybe you thought it was being forced on you, or you were being regimented, or it was too childish, I don't know. But I think the idea of it is really for very young children. Obviously anybody here has an innate ability with music otherwise you wouldn't be here. So there must have been a conflict somewhere along the line.

    Most people who get into music have a certain intelligence and that intelligence by its very nature will object to being trained like a performing seal. The real problem, I rather think, is teachers who don't know how to teach. But whether we want to go there or not I don't know :-)

  10. #109

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Piano keyboard
    The piano keyboard would demonstrate it; but how would you explain it?

  11. #110

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    The piano keyboard would demonstrate it; but how would you explain it?
    As in 'why are there semitones in the major scale?'

    I wouldn't. My main aim is to get them to play and sing music, not explain music theory.

  12. #111

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You may think I've changed my tune (no pun intended) about this. I haven't. You can see from many comments here that some of you reacted very badly against Solfege and I suspect it was because you were too old at the time.

    Maybe you thought it was being forced on you, or you were being regimented, or it was too childish, I don't know. But I think the idea of it is really for very young children. Obviously anybody here has an innate ability with music otherwise you wouldn't be here. So there must have been a conflict somewhere along the line.

    Most people who get into music have a certain intelligence and that intelligence by its very nature will object to being trained like a performing seal. The real problem, I rather think, is teachers who don't know how to teach. But whether we want to go there or not I don't know :-)
    Man what are you talking about...?
    In my country, the youngest children have the so-called rhythm and movement activities.
    There are people specially prepared to conduct such classes - most often they are women who have graduated from a higher music school.
    Children who pass the music school exam then have solfege classes for several years, which are part of the so-called ear training.

  13. #112

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    As in 'why are there semitones in the major scale?'

    I wouldn't. My main aim is to get them to play and sing music, not explain music theory.
    Would you ignore a child who asked?

    Would you pass an
    opportunity to explain music theory?

  14. #113

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Would you ignore a child who asked?

    Would you pass an
    opportunity to explain music theory?
    sure, in a one on one lesson. Not with 30 kids. Well maybe if more than one kid seemed interested.

    otoh, it is best not to get sidetracked into theory for the purposes of a 20-30m lesson. A brief explanation is fine.

    In fact, no one’s ever asked. If they did I would be quite pleased.

  15. #114

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    sure, in a one on one lesson. Not with 30 kids. Well maybe if more than one kid seemed interested.

    otoh, it is best not to get sidetracked into theory for the purposes of a 20-30m lesson. A brief explanation is fine.

    In fact, no one’s ever asked. If they did I would be quite pleased.
    Envisioning an Oliver-like little boy tearfully asking "Please sir, can I have some more music theory?" ...

  16. #115

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Envisioning an Oliver-like little boy tearfully asking "Please sir, can I have some more music theory?" ...
    Little oiks!

  17. #116

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    sure, in a one on one lesson. Not with 30 kids. Well maybe if more than one kid seemed interested.

    otoh, it is best not to get sidetracked into theory for the purposes of a 20-30m lesson. A brief explanation is fine.

    In fact, no one’s ever asked. If they did I would be quite pleased.
    What would you say?

  18. #117

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    What would you say?
    Tell your parents that private-lessons are $60 an hour.

  19. #118

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    What would you say?
    My dream is that all children will always have a desire to learn music theory.

  20. #119

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    What would you say?
    Cos you’re asking right?

    it’s an interesting question that touches on psychoacoustics, Pythagoras, the codification of plainchant under Charlemagne and the modal system, the Hundred Years War, the development of tonal harmony in the 15th and 16th century, Guidonian solemnisation and many other areas.

    the simplest explanation is of course ‘because that’s the scale we primarily use in Western music’. And that really is the main explanation. A more in depth one is that ‘the semitone structure of the Ionian mode supports tonal V-I cadential motion’. That itself is an anachronistic explanation but it’s the main one used.

    Tbh if most musicians could give any reason it would be one of those two. I’m sure Adam Neely could do a video.

  21. #120

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Cos you’re asking right?

    it’s an interesting question that touches on psychoacoustics, Pythagoras, the codification of plainchant under Charlemagne and the modal system, the Hundred Years War, the development of tonal harmony in the 15th and 16th century, Guidonian solemnisation and many other areas.

    the simplest explanation is of course ‘because that’s the scale we primarily use in Western music’. And that really is the main explanation. A more in depth one is that ‘the semitone structure of the Ionian mode supports tonal V-I cadential motion’. That itself is an anachronistic explanation but it’s the main one used.

    Tbh if most musicians could give any reason it would be one of those two. I’m sure Adam Neely could do a video.


    Wrong, I am not asking. I do not need you to tell me the answer. I am not musically illiterate, as you and several others on this forum seem to assume.

    As I thought I had made clear, I am interested to hear how a music teacher would respond to a very interesting question coming from a child, since we are discussing the teaching of children in this thread. But you seem more interested in evading and posturing. I asked you a simple question, but you avoid it and instead show off, as always. So I won't bother asking any more of you. I am beginning to find you insufferable.

  22. #121

    User Info Menu

    For the kind of student that is interested and sufficiently able you could do quite an interesting and useful creative session of exploring different combinations of tones and semitones on a string. You could ask them what moods and associations the scales suggested to them.

  23. #122

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    [/FONT]

    Wrong, I am not asking. I do not need you to tell me the answer. I am not musically illiterate, as you and several others on this forum seem to assume.


    Why ask then? Is this a job interview?

    I’ve never heard you play, I have no idea if you have any experience in music edu. What would be your approach?

    As I thought I had made clear, I am interested to hear how a music teacher would respond to a very interesting question coming from a child, since we are discussing the teaching of children in this thread. But you seem more interested in evading and posturing. I asked you a simple question, but you avoid it and instead show off, as always. So I won't bother asking any more of you. I am beginning to find you insufferable.
    Conversely I’m not sure why you deem it necessary to justify or explain my approach to teaching on this forum because that’s how the tenor of your posts come across and quite honestly I’m humouring you as it is against my better judgement. Most people would have their backs put up by this type of thing. It’s my job and you are not my employer.

    Apologies if this is not your intention, but that’s how it came over.

    But OK… here’s my ‘job interview’ answer

    Tbh for classroom stuff most of the time we have lesson plans and follow some sort of syllabus, my main aim is to teach students for example - open position notes by the end of the year. Intelligent questions like ‘where do the semitones come from?’ are great and should be encouraged by not shutting them down completely; but otoh can’t be allowed to get out of hand also bearing in mind I’m not a classroom teacher - my job is to get kids involved in music making and maybe teach them a bit about the guitar and notation.

    An answer like ‘this is the way it is for the scale that is most frequently used in this part of the world, here are some examples of some alternatives from other cultures’ is good. A more advanced student may be interested more theory background. You have to be sensitive to the context. Perhaps the question could spark other learning activities.

    in practice no-one’s actually asked yet, certainly not in the kind of classes where I teach Kodaly.

    I kind of feel my point has been lost here. you have to stay focussed on learning outcomes, that includes for jazz. People get into the woods, I know I did for ages.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 02-08-2023 at 06:53 AM.

  24. #123

    User Info Menu

    OTOH if your question is meant more like 'let me test if you know your subject' why would I respond to that?

  25. #124

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    [/FONT]

    Wrong, I am not asking. I do not need you to tell me the answer. I am not musically illiterate, as you and several others on this forum seem to assume.

    As I thought I had made clear, I am interested to hear how a music teacher would respond to a very interesting question coming from a child, since we are discussing the teaching of children in this thread. But you seem more interested in evading and posturing. I asked you a simple question, but you avoid it and instead show off, as always. So I won't bother asking any more of you. I am beginning to find you insufferable.
    are you implying that the child is smarter than his teacher?...I know that there are brilliant children...

  26. #125

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    OTOH if your question is meant more like 'let me test if you know your subject' why would I respond to that?
    Any one of your students might be my spy.