How many tonalities or colors do you try to utilize in a tune?

[Jimmy Smith]

Right but...is the player dictating the approach, or is the tune informing it?

Sometimes we can get hung up on making something "fit." That's why I've been having a problem conceptualizing your idea here, because I can't sit down and say "I'd like to use 4 different concepts on this tune" without knowing the tune. Some songs are open to a lot. Others command a more direct approach.

Now some pros have an over-arcing "concept" in general, where lots of different devices can fit into...for example, George Benson pretty much sees everything as I and V. But there's dozens of sub concepts that fit into what "I" and "V" are.

I agree with all your points.

Probably want to let the tune inform your choices. Cool that some pros have their individual approach which they use broadly.

My approach would be to stick with what works for the tune. However, I do want to work some stuff and purposely fit it over tunes like shifty pent.

[mr. beaumont]

I think many times it's a deliberate simplification to take the edge off of complex music and free up the mind, which comes handy especially at breakneck tempos.

Absolutely!

Chasing changes at high tempos is a surefire way to sound both robotic and to paint yourself into a corner should you "lose the changes."

[John A.]

Here's mine:

Attachment 98313

Well now, isn't that something.

[mr. beaumont]

Well now, isn't that something.

Yep.

As in, "I myself and other folks have thrown plenty of shit down there over the years, but I can only bring up a little bucket at a time."

[ragman1]

I don't particularly like exercises but here's one I used to give people. This is probably easy to solo over:

Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7

Then see how easily you can do

Em7 - A7b9 - Dm7 - G7alt - CM7

Then go up the cycle into F, Bb, Eb, Ab, and so on. Repeat till it's easy. Stop when bored :-)

(Bearing in mind there's more than one way to do it)

[mr. beaumont]

I don't particularly like exercises but here's one I used to give people. This is probably easy to solo over:

Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7

Then see how easily you can do

Em7 - A7b9 - Dm7 - G7alt - CM7

Then go up the cycle into F, Bb, Eb, Ab, and so on. Repeat till it's easy. Stop when bored :-)

(Bearing in mind there's more than one way to do it)

[DawgBone]

Yes great thread. This will be the last time I ever create a thread. People seem to think that if I create a theory thread, it's an open invitation to bust in and be a pos, self aggrandize about their elevated approach, and straw man that I don't understand the topic or that I'm doing math problems and can't hear or play. Although I did get productive contributions from Litterick, DawgBone, and ragman.

Anytime you put something out there for others to see or hear there will be some who use it as a chance to be overly critical and hyper-analyze everything you've done, that's the music business. Grow thick skin, soldier forward, and forget the unnecessary criticisms from people you don't respect and who don't respect you. Today you are the student, tomorrow you are the guy giving lessons. Remember that because it will happen imperceptibly if you continue forward.

I was waiting for someone to tell me that in my stupidity I turned my blues scale into a chromatic one after naming the additions I like to include. I think that every soloist is headed in that direction whether they realize it or not. The scales are like training wheels. No one should ride a bike with them on indefinitely.

It would've brought much faster understanding if someone would've said "here's the blues scale but here's why and where you can use these handy extra notes". No, it's just cold patterns on a piece of paper. "This is the blues scale you play it over the I-IV-V" and you are expected to memorize a bunch of patterns and make a rather clunky set of fingerings happen. Then you get to memorize the three note per string versions locking you in further and having little actual usefulness for blues playing because long pinky stretches are much less useful where bending and slurring is concerned.

Also, this is your approach. Have you run it by your instructor? What works for you may seem stupid to someone else. Not everyone learns the same. Keep in mind it's music, it doesn't really matter how you arrive at your chosen goals it only matters that you arrive. It is a great thread to me and caused me to analyze a bit of what I have been doing a little more in depth, so, thank you.

[mr. beaumont]

However, I do want to work some stuff and purposely fit it over tunes like shifty pent.

That I can see...and that's something that can work in a variety of situations, regardless of the tune.

[ragman1]

Jeff -

I'm not sure I get your point but, if I do, that's why I don't like exercises!

By the way, it might be easy for you but it's not easy for everybody. They seize right up when they see the b9 and the alt and they definitely need to know how to make it sound right. And that's just in C.

[mr. beaumont]

Jeff -

I'm not sure I get your point but, if I do, that's why I don't like exercises!

By the way, it might be easy for you but it's not easy for everybody. They seize right up when they see the b9 and the alt and they definitely need to know how to make it sound right. And that's just in C.

Just my joking way of saying that I don't ever see a 7th chord and think there can't be any alterations

Certainly not one preceeded by a ii!

[Vihar]

I don't particularly like exercises but here's one I used to give people. This is probably easy to solo over:

Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7

Then see how easily you can do

Em7 - A7b9 - Dm7 - G7alt - CM7

I raise you a

Em7 - Dbm7 - BbM7 - Dd7 - CM7

[pauln]

My approach would be to stick with what works for the tune. However, I
do want to work some stuff and purposely fit it over tunes like shifty pent.

Shifty pent is cool. On the guitar, one of the motivations
for using it is that you chromatically repeat a set pattern
shifting the whole pattern chromatically through a series
of chords in the progression - causing the patterns to hit
the altered notes. It is easier to just hear it and then hear
how to find them. So I'm not sure if the repeating pattern
moved chromatically that works very easily on the guitar
transfers as easily to the keyboard; example to play with
here is like the first part of the "B" section of Masquerade.

Ebm7 Ab(9) Dbmaj7 Bb(13) Ebm7 Ab(9) Dbmaj7 - % -

I'm just going to put the notes - think of them as either a
major or minor descending pentatonic scales, as heard.

Ebm7 Db Bb Ab F Eb Db
Ab(9) D B A Gb E D
Dbmaj7 Eb C Bb G F Eb
Bb(13) E Db B Ab Gb E

Then you might do something similar and different like
using a pattern where the top note descends but as a
change from an outside altered sound - not shifty pent.

Ebm7 F Db Bb Gb Eb C
Ab(9) E C A Gb Eb C
Dbmaj7 Eb C Ab F D Bb

In terms of tonalities, what's going on here is that these
patterns are pentatonic (and simple for the guitar), but
complex in that altered notes of the chords get played
(so complex), and because it's altered notes across four
chords and four bars, it becomes an increasingly outside
sound. The challenge playing outside is bringing it back;
it's good to follow it with something nice and predictable.
Part of that predictability in this case here is continuing
the chromatic idea in the opposite direction by using the
starting note of each piece chromatically and letting the
rest of it notes follow the chords more closely, so they
resolve the tension of the altered outside part before it.

[mjo]

I wasn't going to reply here, but a couple things grabbed me.

1st:

It's easy to get locked into patterns i.e scales. They kind of get taught as a formulaic way toward achieving a certain sound and so it's easy to get tunnel vision and neglect other possibilities that are within that framework, right under your fingers, like chord tones or passing tones.

Maybe I'm off base, and undoubtedly I have crap theory understanding since I quit theory once we started doing four part harmonies, yuk, but I want a 7th as a passing tone in my blues scale. Same for #5 since it's right under my fingers. One could argue it's kind of a "bum" note but so is the b5 but somehow it's included? Or how about a 3rd since it's part of the I chord arpeggio and functions as a passing tone when it's not the I chord? Also right under my fingers. Same for a b9. Add some of them and you get a scale pattern that flows a little more smoothly, at least, to my ears on a guitar. Also offers more ins and outs and general lick-age within the pattern.

It's likely my theory is more piss poor than I already imagined it was but I still wonder why so much is omitted on a basic blues scale, especially for guitarists considering many of the fingering patterns where these notes are right under where my fingers are already headed.. Could've saved myself a lot of time and experimenting if I could've had the whole enchilada from the get go.

This sounds like me, ( I never even got to 4 part harmony ). I learned - #5, b9 - etc... on my own, and why, (sometimes/mostly) -lol- ... if it's a half-step from where I'm going, I'll likely play it. I've thought about the "whole enchilada" too. If I ever teach, I might build a better one,... or maybe not. It's hard, I think ... ?

-cheers Dawg

Jimmy,
We ended up with a great thread here ! I think there's some great insight here. I've read it a couple times and I'll read it again.
The title made me cock my head, -what the hell ?- but it's a good read.

-best,
Mike

[DawgBone]

I wasn't going to reply here, but a couple things grabbed me.

1st:


This sounds like me, ( I never even got to 4 part harmony ). I learned - #5, b9 - etc... on my own, and why, (sometimes/mostly) -lol- ... if it's a half-step from where I'm going, I'll likely play it. I've thought about the "whole enchilada" too. If I ever teach, I might build a better one,... or maybe not. It's hard, I think ... ?

-cheers Dawg

Jimmy,
We ended up with a great thread here ! I think there's some great insight here. I've read it a couple times and I'll read it again.
The title made me cock my head, -what the hell ?- but it's a good read.

-best,
Mike

I was reading a magazine someplace many years ago now and they talked about Charlie Christian using 9ths and 13ths, floating on top of the band with them during his solos. I don't know if it's true or not but they sure work good when played over dom 7 chords so that was when I got an inkling that the basic blues scale as taught was kind of lacking. You have to start someplace no doubt, but it'd be nice if instructors did a little more explaining on expanding your horizons in terms of the how and why and where you can add extras to your scale patterns so you don't get locked in.

My instructor was a really good and enthusiastic instructor, now teaching at the university level, but I think he kind of looked down his nose and changed his attitude towards me once he knew that my sole interest was learning the blues, lol. I think like a lot of guys he considered blues below him. TBH that attitude usually shows in their playing if you put them on a straight blues song.

It amazes me how much is possible using just blues, major, and minor pentatonics. A whole lifetime could be spent without ever squeezing every possible lick out of them when you consider slurs and bends and all the added tones and techniques i.e "side slipping" we discussed in this thread. Great thread!

[Jimmy Smith]

^ I agree. There's so much you can do and study in blues with only blues scale, major and minor, and maybe a couple of other complementary devices.

Jimmy,
We ended up with a great thread here ! I think there's some great insight here. I've read it a couple times and I'll read it again.
The title made me cock my head, -what the hell ?- but it's a good read.

-best,
Mike

Thanks, I think it's a somewhat important topic. I used to go about it just however like some people say. Then I started taking lessons with Tony and realized that the pros hold themselves to certain standards to get to their level of playing. So it is important to have some kind of tech stuff going on as far as the colors to make it interesting to the listener. Or have a general concept with the colors to suit the song.

[ragman1]

I did see a humorous quip by a poster some time ago here. Something like 'Playing too many outside sounds can lead to the suggestion that you go off and form your own band' :-)

[DawgBone]

^ I agree. There's so much you can do and study in blues with only blues scale, major and minor, and maybe a couple of other complementary devices.

.....the smooth mixing of major and minor together, and on guitar, bending and reverse bending, hammers, pull offs, slides. A lifetime isn't long enough to master it, unfortunately. If I had four or five hundred years I could come close.

[Jimmy Smith]

^ So true.

I did see a humorous quip by a poster some time ago here. Something like 'Playing too many outside sounds can lead to the suggestion that you go off and form your own band' :-)

Lol

[Christian Miller]

I was reading a magazine someplace many years ago now and they talked about Charlie Christian using 9ths and 13ths, floating on top of the band with them during his solos. I don't know if it's true or not but they sure work good when played over dom 7 chords so that was when I got an inkling that the basic blues scale as taught was kind of lacking. You have to start someplace no doubt, but it'd be nice if instructors did a little more explaining on expanding your horizons in terms of the how and why and where you can add extras to your scale patterns so you don't get locked in.

Yeah Charlie’s a great bridge

My instructor was a really good and enthusiastic instructor, now teaching at the university level, but I think he kind of looked down his nose and changed his attitude towards me once he knew that my sole interest was learning the blues, lol. I think like a lot of guys he considered blues below him. TBH that attitude usually shows in their playing if you put them on a straight blues song.

Shame. I’d love a straight blues student. It would give me a much needed nudge to get deeper into that music. You learn as much from your students as you learn from them.

and what’s jazz without blues? Prog rock, that’s what.

It amazes me how much is possible using just blues, major, and minor pentatonics. A whole lifetime could be spent without ever squeezing every possible lick out of them when you consider slurs and bends and all the added tones and techniques i.e "side slipping" we discussed in this thread. Great thread!

And playing the blues on non blues tunes of course. I love that sort of thing that Trux/Tedeschi do. I suppose you could call it Southern Rock, but it’s that natural fusion of styles and those guys play changes… blues doesn’t have to mean minor pent on a 12 bar

[DawgBone]

Yeah Charlie’s a great bridge



Shame. I’d love a straight blues student. It would give me a much needed nudge to get deeper into that music. You learn as much from your students as you learn from them.

and what’s jazz without blues? Prog rock, that’s what.



And playing the blues on non blues tunes of course. I love that sort of thing that Trux/Tedeschi do. I suppose you could call it Southern Rock, but it’s that natural fusion of styles and those guys play changes… blues doesn’t have to mean minor pent on a 12 bar

Jazz without blues, prog rock, lol.

I think it might've been because blues was more popular in the 90's and it seemed a lot of the guys who came up in the 70's were either "over it" or just considered it below them so I think that was where some of his irritation stemmed from. He was over it. Pretty much anyone handy with a guitar can hang on a couple 12 bar tunes but not many with a guitar can or will hang on them all night or take time to delve into some of the alternate, and more interesting forms that are also used in some blues standards.

I do like the Allman Bros and such but don't consider it blues. But no, blues does not need to be minor pent on a 12 bar either. You might be surprised how many otherwise good players cannot stick that straight ahead 12/8 slow blues 12 bar with any conviction, even in TX. Everyone is mostly a blues-rocker now instead of straight ahead blues and that means two chords and a bridge instead of just three chords, lol.

[Jimmy Smith]

Blues solo improvisation should rely on basic motifs being developed within a fairly narrow framework IMO.

Was dying on my jazz bluez. Been playing it for years and still suck lol. Admittedly with bass on Hammond is more difficult and it hasn't been my main instrument for that long. I think I'm finally getting it tho. What's clicking for me is sticking to the narrow framework of the chord pattern and phrasing but also, especially for jazz blues, being able to expand the material somewhat. Getting my colors together for the jazz blues. Using blues stuff including standard mix, pent, and blues, then jazz stuff such as dim on the 4 chord, melodic minor or whole tone on the 5 or 2ndary dominant chords like leading into the 4 chord or leading into the 2 chord, or tying to get some of the flatted scale sounds like phrygian in there because organ uses that.

[mjo]

....You might be surprised how many otherwise good players cannot stick that straight ahead 12/8 slow blues 12 bar with any conviction, ....

I'm wondering if you can elaborate on this, where are they coming up short ? ...maybe just never heard Lone me a Dime ?
This could be a tough question, I'm not sure I could answer such a thing. It may be the sentence following that snip is all you mean.
I assume you're not talking drummers, although I was just watching a drum instructional that covered this same thing. .... if it's me, I'm just following the drummer.... is his fault -lol

[DawgBone]

I'm wondering if you can elaborate on this, where are they coming up short ? ...maybe just never heard Lone me a Dime ?
This could be a tough question, I'm not sure I could answer such a thing. It may be the sentence following that snip is all you mean.
I assume you're not talking drummers, although I was just watching a drum instructional that covered this same thing. .... if it's me, I'm just following the drummer.... is his fault -lol

Blues-rock will never be blues even though now the general public, and many guitarists, think it is that. Maybe it's being blues police but I can't help but notice some of the deficiencies that have showed up the last 20 years at your local blues jam and audiences in general. This rather sad article from Guitar Player would be an example.
21 Top New Blues Guitarists As Chosen By You | GuitarPlayer

"Somebody loan me a dime?"

"Yes of course I friggin' love Boz Scaggs"

"No, Fenton Robinson"

"Never heard of him"