The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Occasionally you see a chord in a chart like "E phrygian".

    Sources I checked suggest playing it as an E7susb9. E A B D F

    They also mention that the same thing can be written as:

    G7/E,
    Dm/E (although maybe it should be Dm6/E),
    Fmaj7b5/E (maybe it's Fmaj13b5/E).

    So I'm wondering why use the "E Phrygian" notation?

    Can it be anything other than a E7susb9?

    For example, if you look at it as coming from melodic minor (2nd mode Dmelmin) that gives you all the other chords you can generate from melmin, including, per Mark Levine, all the tertiary chords and all the tone clusters.

    How do people think about this chord symbol?

    Do you immediately say to yourself "oh, it's E7susb9"? Or, lydian a half step higher? Or grab a few notes from Dmelmin and hope for the best?

    What exactly is "E phrygian" telling you to do?

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  3. #2

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    E phrygian seems like a very poor name for that chord. If we follow the standard chord-building procedure, then E phrygian is just Em. Perhaps E phrygian 11 might describe that chord. If I called a chord E Ionian, I don't think anybody would assume the 7, 9 and 11 were included.

    My preference is for chords which aren't standard construction, like Maj, Min, 7th, etc, then just spell it out. In this case, E7b9sus4 or maybe E7b9/A

    I've never seen "E Phrygian" written on a chord chart so where was this?

  4. #3

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    You hear Phrygian in modern movie sound tracks to evoke various moods as scales (repeatedly playing the first four notes of the scale on a piano in A Few Good Men just about every transition from one segment of the next suggesting a sophisticated version of "meanwhile, back at the ranch") and as chords (repeatedly playing the phrygian chord as the resolution from having raised its third a half step just about every time they show panning landscapes of Mars in Total Recall suggesting "strange/ominous beauty").

    When confronted with "E phrygian" in a chart, you could try identifying a mood that you think expresses or fits the tune... parts of phrygian contain parts that could be from other major seventh, augmented, minormajor, etc. chords. If you explore you may come up with different forms that variously suggest other chords' shadows (other roots) and may be able to use their moods and functional shadows to support meeting what you think to be the expectations or possibilities of the tune.

    You do this already with the colors of other scales and chords, phrygian just may be more subtle and shady...

  5. #4
    The tune which triggered the post had a sequence of Ebsus13, Eb phyrgian, Ab lydian.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    You hear Phrygian in modern movie sound tracks to evoke various moods as scales (repeatedly playing the first four notes of the scale on a piano in A Few Good Men just about every transition from one segment of the next suggesting a sophisticated version of "meanwhile, back at the ranch") and as chords (repeatedly playing the phrygian chord as the resolution from having raised its third a half step just about every time they show panning landscapes of Mars in Total Recall suggesting "strange/ominous beauty").

    When confronted with "E phrygian" in a chart, you could try identifying a mood that you think expresses or fits the tune... parts of phrygian contain parts that could be from other major seventh, augmented, minormajor, etc. chords. If you explore you may come up with different forms that variously suggest other chords' shadows (other roots) and may be able to use their moods and functional shadows to support meeting what you think to be the expectations or possibilities of the tune.

    You do this already with the colors of other scales and chords, phrygian just may be more subtle and shady...
    I like the idea of appreciating the mood. When you talk about "parts of phrygian", how are you suggesting using them. An example? In what domain (which notes) am I to explore?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Occasionally you see a chord in a chart like "E phrygian".

    Sources I checked suggest playing it as an E7susb9. E A B D F

    They also mention that the same thing can be written as:

    G7/E,
    Dm/E (although maybe it should be Dm6/E),
    Fmaj7b5/E (maybe it's Fmaj13b5/E).

    So I'm wondering why use the "E Phrygian" notation?

    Can it be anything other than a E7susb9?

    For example, if you look at it as coming from melodic minor (2nd mode Dmelmin) that gives you all the other chords you can generate from melmin, including, per Mark Levine, all the tertiary chords and all the tone clusters.

    How do people think about this chord symbol?

    Do you immediately say to yourself "oh, it's E7susb9"? Or, lydian a half step higher? Or grab a few notes from Dmelmin and hope for the best?

    What exactly is "E phrygian" telling you to do?
    E phrygian is the third mode of the C major scale, i.e. E minor due to the natural G in it. So, where comes the E7 from?
    I know that more as Em11. The b9 is rarely played in the chord, more in the melody.

  8. #7

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    I would associate such a chord symbol with modal jazz, and my feeling is that that in most cases when such a chord symbol is used, the tune will rest on that "chord" for a while, and it is the feel or mood of the mode you want.

    I depends of course on context but I would think that in most cases you can take any note from the phrygian scale and use it to create movement when comping.

    Here's a quick demo, where I first play the phrygian scale (to set the mood) and then I play it in fourths with the root as a pedal, and then I end with a short "groove" demo.



    Playing fourths is just one example of voicings you can pick from the scale to create movement, but fourths voicings are quite common in modal jazz.

    Your options do depend on context, the song you're playing, what other players are doing etc.
    If something in a jazz sheet is puzzling it often makes more sense when you listen to recordings of it (and even if you think a sheet makes sense, recordings tend to deepen the understanding)

    I noticed I was quite sceptical to the voicing where the b9 was on top. I've noticed that sometimes when playing an entire chord scales on a chord, that the avoid notes live up to their name.

  9. #8

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    I would probably opt for non tertian voicings through the mode. Quartal is an obvious one, but could be anything.

    Either that or

    0 2 3 0 0 0

    Haha

    But I'm assuming if they wrote a mode not a chord they want something a little less functional and more modern. And not all the chords one may find in Mick Goodrick style quartal cycle 2 or whatever have good names.

    EDIT done a vid
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-16-2022 at 06:27 PM. Reason: Apparently I don’t know the difference between phrygian and phrygian dominant lol

  10. #9

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    What's the tune?

    Chord charts are chord charts...what's the melody do at that point? That should be a clue as to the sound the composer was going for.

  11. #10

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    There's no guessing. A website that says "Phrygian chords" is not an authority. The song is.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The tune which triggered the post had a sequence of Ebsus13, Eb phyrgian, Ab lydian.
    The harmonic context is a simple cadential move from a bright dominant sound to a
    darker one to a floaty major but who knows what intentions lurk in the mind of the author?
    Here’s an idea from a 7th chord superimposition mentality.

    Eb13sus = Dbma7/Eb
    Eb Phrygian = Dbm7/Eb
    Ab Lydian = Ebma7/Ab

    The characteristic notes of the Phrygian sound include b2/b9 and b6/b13.
    Dbm7 (derived from Cb major, parent scale of Eb Phrygian) contains both
    characteristic notes without doubling the root.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I like the idea of appreciating the mood. When you talk about "parts of phrygian", how are you suggesting using them. An example? In what domain (which notes) am I to explore?
    I imagine these domains: fingering, semi-tones, notes, and chords (including polychords / upper structures)

    I find fingering patterns very intuitive but I think that is because I know what I want to hear.
    Semi-tone patterns are tricky because they describe the space between notes and certain manipulations of them are invalid.
    Note patterns can be extremely interesting if you have not looked at the circle of fifths for a long time; if you know it well the phrygian in particular may still surprise you because of its note pattern.
    Chord patterns are great mood hunters, singles, type variations, and combination testing.

    If what follows looks like "mad science", just laugh it off; but I hope something in it might help or provide an insight.

    Fingering pattern
    If you impose a peculiar fingering (unnatural? but revealing) it may help to "see" where some of the possibilities are hiding (similarity to other chords's fingering). Here is an example of E phyrgian fingering that reveals two identical "parts" a fifth apart, each of four notes. Format is finger/string/fret:
    1/5/7 2/5/8 4/5/10 1/4/7 ... 1/4/9 2/4/10 4/4/12 1/3/9
    Of course, if you like to play octaves like Wes you may already have noticed what's coming...

    Semi-tone pattern
    Phrygian has a potential and useful pseudo-symmetric semi-tone structure if you impose thinking of it as eight notes and then allow omitting the middle whole step in order to separate the semi-tone pattern into two parts like this:
    [hwwwhww] ----> [hww] [hww]
    This reminds us of other symmetric scales whose parts are cyclic within the octave
    augmented [w+h h] [w+h h] [w+h h]
    whole-half diminished [wh] [wh] [wh] [wh]
    half-whole diminished [hw] [hw] [hw] [hw]
    Phrygian is not strictly cyclic within the octave, but is so within the abstraction of the circle of fifths

    Note pattern
    We may adjust the note pattern of phrygian into two parts based on the semi-tone manipulation above
    EFGABCDE [hwwwhww] ----> EFGA BCDE [hww] [hww]
    Here is a more detailed examination of this...

    E phrygian EFGA BCDE
    Both lower and upper parts have the same semi-tone structure of [hww] and the pair of bottom notes from each part are a fifth apart (E and B in this example). Putting those two attributes above together, phrygian has a symmetry that all four notes of the upper part are perfect fifths over their same place counterparts in the lower part. This means we may start a new phrygian scale from the fifth, so we do... and get B phrygian
    B phrygian BCDE F#GAB
    Ascending a fifth from E to use B as the tonic for a new scale overlaps half of the notes behind and picks up a sharp. We do it again.
    F phrygian F#GAB C#DEF#
    Now have two sharps, and so far these three scales are 3rd modes of C, G, and D (familiar?), continuing
    C# phrygian C#DEF# G#ABC#
    You know this one is 3rd mode of A, three sharps following the circle of fifths
    Now going the other way
    A phrygian ABbCD EFGA
    Descending by a fifth from E phrygian, reversing circle of fifths, 3rd mode of F first flat, etc.

    Moving by fifths up or down remains most consonant through more iterations than any other interval except unity (octaves) which gives us a clue when comparing and anticipating chords' "closeness" in mood (how close are they on the circle of fifths?)

    Chord pattern
    Mood chord hunting a few ways or levels
    Examining single chords
    - those resulting from harmonizing the E phrygian scale (like C and Am, in this case all triads without accidentals)
    - those similarly fingered/constructed to those harmonized results (like Cmaj7 and AminMaj9)
    - noticing when the same chord may be major or minor pending context (032000 is Cmaj7/E and/or Em#5add5)
    Examining the variations of upper structures or the upper chord of polychords that describe your target
    - F/Em is E phrygian, so exploring F major and variations close to it
    Exploring extended connections based on polychord "dictionary"
    - knowing E phrygian contains Cmaj7 look at polychords with Cmaj7 as the denominator
    - dictionary: D major over Cmaj7 results in Cmaj13 #11
    - dictionary: D minor over Cmaj7 results in Cmaj13 (the 11, F usually omitted)
    - comparing and recognizing Dm/Cmaj7 as the unshaded E phrygian, etc.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I imagine these domains: fingering, semi-tones, notes, and chords (including polychords / upper structures)

    I find fingering patterns very intuitive but I think that is because I know what I want to hear.
    Semi-tone patterns are tricky because they describe the space between notes and certain manipulations of them are invalid.
    Note patterns can be extremely interesting if you have not looked at the circle of fifths for a long time; if you know it well the phrygian in particular may still surprise you because of its note pattern.
    Chord patterns are great mood hunters, singles, type variations, and combination testing.

    If what follows looks like "mad science", just laugh it off; but I hope something in it might help or provide an insight.

    Fingering pattern
    If you impose a peculiar fingering (unnatural? but revealing) it may help to "see" where some of the possibilities are hiding (similarity to other chords's fingering). Here is an example of E phyrgian fingering that reveals two identical "parts" a fifth apart, each of four notes. Format is finger/string/fret:
    1/5/7 2/5/8 4/5/10 1/4/7 ... 1/4/9 2/4/10 4/4/12 1/3/9
    Of course, if you like to play octaves like Wes you may already have noticed what's coming...

    Semi-tone pattern
    Phrygian has a potential and useful pseudo-symmetric semi-tone structure if you impose thinking of it as eight notes and then allow omitting the middle whole step in order to separate the semi-tone pattern into two parts like this:
    [hwwwhww] ----> [hww] [hww]
    This reminds us of other symmetric scales whose parts are cyclic within the octave
    augmented [w+h h] [w+h h] [w+h h]
    whole-half diminished [wh] [wh] [wh] [wh]
    half-whole diminished [hw] [hw] [hw] [hw]
    Phrygian is not strictly cyclic within the octave, but is so within the abstraction of the circle of fifths

    Note pattern
    We may adjust the note pattern of phrygian into two parts based on the semi-tone manipulation above
    EFGABCDE [hwwwhww] ----> EFGA BCDE [hww] [hww]
    Here is a more detailed examination of this...

    E phrygian EFGA BCDE
    Both lower and upper parts have the same semi-tone structure of [hww] and the pair of bottom notes from each part are a fifth apart (E and B in this example). Putting those two attributes above together, phrygian has a symmetry that all four notes of the upper part are perfect fifths over their same place counterparts in the lower part. This means we may start a new phrygian scale from the fifth, so we do... and get B phrygian
    B phrygian BCDE F#GAB
    Ascending a fifth from E to use B as the tonic for a new scale overlaps half of the notes behind and picks up a sharp. We do it again.
    F phrygian F#GAB C#DEF#
    Now have two sharps, and so far these three scales are 3rd modes of C, G, and D (familiar?), continuing
    C# phrygian C#DEF# G#ABC#
    You know this one is 3rd mode of A, three sharps following the circle of fifths
    Now going the other way
    A phrygian ABbCD EFGA
    Descending by a fifth from E phrygian, reversing circle of fifths, 3rd mode of F first flat, etc.

    Moving by fifths up or down remains most consonant through more iterations than any other interval except unity (octaves) which gives us a clue when comparing and anticipating chords' "closeness" in mood (how close are they on the circle of fifths?)

    Chord pattern
    Mood chord hunting a few ways or levels
    Examining single chords
    - those resulting from harmonizing the E phrygian scale (like C and Am, in this case all triads without accidentals)
    - those similarly fingered/constructed to those harmonized results (like Cmaj7 and AminMaj9)
    - noticing when the same chord may be major or minor pending context (032000 is Cmaj7/E and/or Em#5add5)
    Examining the variations of upper structures or the upper chord of polychords that describe your target
    - F/Em is E phrygian, so exploring F major and variations close to it
    Exploring extended connections based on polychord "dictionary"
    - knowing E phrygian contains Cmaj7 look at polychords with Cmaj7 as the denominator
    - dictionary: D major over Cmaj7 results in Cmaj13 #11
    - dictionary: D minor over Cmaj7 results in Cmaj13 (the 11, F usually omitted)
    - comparing and recognizing Dm/Cmaj7 as the unshaded E phrygian, etc.
    Aren’t you meant to be ‘mad at theory’? ;-)

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I read that site before posting.

    It doesn't answer the question I'm asking.

    What, exactly, is the composer telling you to play?

    Or, stated another way, why does the composer write "Eb phrygian" and not, say, Eb7susb9?

    And, why do I see this for Lydian and Phrygian, but no other modes?
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-16-2022 at 06:21 PM.

  16. #15

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    For me E phrygian, or E- phrygian implies the use of the Phrygian scale. Might be small solo or melody embellishments, might be usage of actual chords from the scale, quartal voicings or any other intervallic voicings, etc.. The phrygian term defines the color you or the soloist will use over the chord.

    If you actually just play a chord, it can be a simple E-7 or an E-7b9.

  17. #16
    The tune is called Orozimbo & Rosecler, by Ivan Lins.

    It's in Ab, and the melody in the first 8 bars is a bunch of C's, then some Bbs (with the occasional Ab), descending in bar 7 to G.

    So, bars 5-8 are Ebsus13, Eb Phryg, Ab Lyd and Abmaj7. One bar per chord.

    The melody over bars 5 and 6 is Bb Ab Bb Ab, and leading into bar 7, a G, which repeated through bar 8.

    What makes sense to my ear is basically Bbm7/Eb, Bbm7b5/Eb, Abmaj7#11.

    What I'm trying to understand is why the composer writes Eb Phrygian and what he's telling the guitar player to do.

  18. #17

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    If you play

    x 5 8 5 6 x

    it sounds like Cadd9/E

  19. #18

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    This one?


  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    This one?

    That's the tune. The part I referred to is just after the melody kicks in with a full bar of pickup notes.

    One chord per bar:

    Fm9 /Fm9/ Bbsus4/ Bb7#11/ Ebsus13/ EbPhryg/ Ablyd/ Abmaj7

    To my ear it sounds like, among other things, an inner moving voice Eb for three bars, then E, then F, back to E, down to D, back to Eb.

    If that's a reasonable interpretation, that phryg chord is Eb7susb9. What else could it reasonably be?

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I bet in the end it's just Cb maj. As you'd expect. What else is Eb Phyrg?



    E-X-A-C-T-L-Y!!
    Eb7susb9 has an E. Cbmaj does not, unless you're talking about the chord scale.

    I may not have been clear enough -- I've been talking about the comping chord.

    Ebphryg is either the third mode of Cbmajor or the second mode of Dbmelmin -- clear for soloing, but not so helpful for comping. For that matter Eb7susb9 is clearly associated with the same two scale choices.

    Your view, apparently, is that when you see Ebphryg you go right to Eb7susb9 -- which that website seems to support.

    I don't have a problem with that, but I still wonder why somebody would write Ebphryg.

    I don't have permission to post the chart.

  22. #21

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    Just to lower the tone a bit and to give E phrygian a rest, the opening chord of the Pink Panther theme is sometimes called Am Phrygian. I don't really know why, I just play it.

  23. #22

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    So, that is what theory looks like.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    So, that is what theory looks like.
    I'm getting very very ANGRY!!

  25. #24

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    I think they spelled it very well, Phrygian.

  26. #25

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    Why Phrygian chords?-girodet-phrygian-cap-jpeg

    Self-Portrait with a Phrygian Cap
    Anne-Louis Girodet de Roussy-Trioson