The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Hey, guess what?

    Eb9 - Eb7b9 - AbM7#11 - AbM7

    I give up.

    Orozimbo e Rosicler Sheet music for Piano, Flute (Solo) | Musescore.com
    That would work, but it's not the same. The first two chords you list don't have an Ab.

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  3. #27

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    On a side note, I've been adding some of these scales to my pallet with unconventional notes flatted because they're idiomatic to organ in certain instances. Mostly phrygian and mix flat 6. My listening lead me to this choice. Not math schematics and zero ear. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    I'm getting very very
    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    ANGRY!!
    Lol!

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Attachment 97438

    Self-Portrait with a Phrygian Cap
    Anne-Louis Girodet de Roussy-Trioson
    ensure the composer has provided enough time for the hat change

  5. #29

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    There's a lightbulb joke in this thread somewhere.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I would probably opt for non tertian voicings through the mode. Quartal is an obvious one, but could be anything.

    Either that or

    0 2 3 0 0 0

    Haha

    But I'm assuming if they wrote a mode not a chord they want something a little less functional and more modern. And not all the chords one may find in Mick Goodrick style quartal cycle 2 or whatever have good names.

    EDIT done a vid
    It sounds to me like Emily Remler used these voicing in Snowfall (Mick Goodrick influence?):

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    It sounds to me like Emily Remler used these voicing in Snowfall (Mick Goodrick influence?):
    they certainly sound Mick Goodrick-y; would need to have a close listen to suss out exactly what’s happening but yeah maybe similar concept?

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Fm9 /Fm9/ Bbsus4/ Bb7#11/ Ebsus13/ EbPhryg/ Ablyd/ Abmaj7
    I found this version of the sheet music Orozimbo e Rosicler Sheet music for Piano, Flute (Solo) | Musescore.com and it has it as:

    Fm7(9) / Fm7(9) / Bbm7 / Bbm7(b6) / Eb7(9) / Eb7(b9) / Abmaj7#11 / Abmaj7

    which seems a lot clearer to me. It all depends on context, though.

  9. #33

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    Mix of Phrygian of dominant (Jewish scale) and regular Phrygian on Deep Purple Hey Joe (Phrygian cadence but who cares ?).
    On Miles Davis, the Phrygian mode can be heard on a dominant (regular Phrygian).
    La Fiesta, a very nice tune I loved when I wasn't really into jazz.

  10. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I'm afraid that was discovered quite a few posts back. You should really have checked the whole thread but the score the OP is using has the two Eb chords as sus chords.

    The Eb7b9 on that Musecore is written on his score as Eb Phrygian and the OP didn't know what that meant. It turns out that it's merely another way of writing Ebsusb9.

    The OP plays with a band and it's not clear whether he has to take a solo but I think his main concern was how to comp these chords. But that can be answered too if that's actually what he wants. There have been some answers although I'm not sure if it's been nailed clearly to his satisfaction yet.
    My question was to try to understand why somebody would write EbPhryg instead of Eb7susb9. Do these two chord symbols refer to exactly the same thing? If not, what's the difference?

    Christian suggested that Eb Phryg implies a more modern approach -- and his video gives some examples of voicings that fit that description.

    My conclusion after all of this is that Ebsus13 can be played x66668, The next chord lowers the F to an E and omits the high C. That's x6665x (and you might add the high Bb) . And, thence to Abmaj7#11, which I played as 4x553(3). And, then Abmaj7.

    So, I get a moving voice on the B string, F E D Eb.

    What I realized that was helpful is that x66656 is Dbm6/Eb. So, if the bassist has the Eb, Dbm6 voicings may work.

    This isn't exactly news. Dbm6 is a tonic chord in Db mel min and Eb7susb9 is often used as the II chord in that scale.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I'm afraid that was discovered quite a few posts back. You should really have checked the whole thread but the score the OP is using has the two Eb chords as sus chords.

    The Eb7b9 on that Musecore is written on his score as Eb Phrygian and the OP didn't know what that meant. It turns out that it's merely another way of writing Ebsusb9.

    The OP plays with a band and it's not clear whether he has to take a solo but I think his main concern was how to comp these chords. But that can be answered too if that's actually what he wants. There have been some answers although I'm not sure if it's been nailed clearly to his satisfaction yet.
    I wrote out the changes in the score, pointing out that they are different. When I come across something in a piece of music that I don't understand, one way to find out more is to look for other versions and see how it's written there. Then you get clues that help you get closer to the music. The sheet music is not the music.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    So, I get a moving voice on the B string, F E D Eb.
    That was my takeaway after looking at the music and playing along with one of the youtube videos.

  13. #37

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    Cm/F (Fm9)
    Ab/Bb (Ab sus)
    Ab+/Bb (Bb7#11)
    Db/Eb (Eb sus)
    Dbm/Eb (Eb phrygian)
    Bb/Ab (Ab lydian)
    Cm/Ab (Abmaj7)


    Or something will be fine.

    There's some implied voice leading in there which is there in the slash chords. I figure that would be good for an ensemble with piano and bass.

    On the recording/video it might be a little more like the chart with Dbm/Eb (Eb7sus4b9) for Eb phrygian and Abmaj7#11 for Ab lydian, which are super obvious choices and work well in context. TBH if I was the
    arranger/copyist I'd just write those to avoid a double take. But you see all sorts of things.

  14. #38
    I've played it a couple of times and soloed over it.

    The first time, I got thrown a bit -- a hole in my fretboard knowledge was exposed.

    When comping, I saw Eb phrygian and I drew a blank, then had to remind myself that it's 7susb9. I don't have a lot of 7susb9 voicings at my fingertips (more now, having given this some thought). One I like and used in most cases is xx 14 13 11 11 (E Ab Bb Eb). But, that voicing is awkward in this progression because it only works in too high an octave. Another that I use is x6665x which seemed appropriate in this situation.

    For soloing, I saw an Eb dominant of some sort going to an Abmaj of some sort. I was able to solo without difficulty. Next time I do it, I'll probably reference that moving line on the B string.

    The pianist saw it as coming from Bmajor and argued against thinking Dbmelmin. The latter has a C he didn't like. My usual attitude is that things like that can be adjusted by ear. That is, use either scale (if you're thinking that way) and then don't play the notes you don't like.

  15. #39

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    It’s kind of IV IVm I no? (In Ab)

  16. #40

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    If it’s truly Eb Phrygian then Cb/B is the parent scale. It’s possible that Eb7susb9 is the intended chord since it is far more common but Eb Phrygian is also a real thing and that’s what is written on the chart.

  17. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    If it’s truly Eb Phrygian then Cb/B is the parent scale. It’s possible that Eb7susb9 is the intended chord since it is far more common but Eb Phrygian is also a real thing and that’s what is written on the chart.
    Can you elaborate on that?

    What is the difference between Eb Phrygian and Eb7susb9?

    Would you use different comp chords for each?

    When the composer writes Eb Phrygian, rather than Eb7susb9, what is he telling the musicians to do?

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    So they nicknamed it a phrygian chord.
    Exactly!

    Everyone home in time for tea

    (Don't we all have nicknames for particular chords?)

  19. #43

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    I don't think this thread has been a waste of time or effort at all.
    Where RP asks, "In what domain (which notes) am I to explore?"
    that reminds us the different domains offer different pathways
    to approaching solutions. This was echoed again where he wrote
    "a hole in my fretboard knowledge was exposed". The first thing
    I wondered was within which domain(s) might appear that hole?
    It helps to hold in mind these multiple fronts from which to push.

    Patterns/structure of fingering, semi-tones, notes/pitches, chords
    I imagine these domains; anyone include others in their thinking?

  20. #44
    One thing I've never seen is a chord symbol like "C melmin". Or "Cmelmin/(bass note).

    That chord symbol would immediately mean something to me -- because all melodic minor chords are the same chord and are fully interchangeable, per Mark Levine. And, it's not just tertiary chords from melmin, it's just about any tone cluster. So, I'd assume that the composer wanted me to comp with various voicings drawn from that scale. One of them, btw, would be 7susb9 (second mode).

    But, I've never seen it.

    What prompted this thread was seeing "phrygian", when, apparently, it is synonymous with 7susb9 for comping and is seen as third mode of major (to some, in some tunes) for soloing. The term Phrygian does tell you not to assume the 7susb9 takes second mode melodic minor for improv. Rather, it is played with third mode Major.

    rag says it's a nickname. that's a reasonable answer, meaning it's a shorthand (not that it's really shorter) for 7susb9 and, since nicknames are optional, you could just as well call it by its full name, 7susb9. I'm still not sure why a composer makes this naming choice. I'd have thought that "phrygian chord" might mean something other than 7susb9, but, as a practical matter, it doesn't seem to, unless I've misunderstood a post.

    E F G A B C D. The tertiary build would be E G B D F - so that should be the phrygian chord, and could be called Em7b9, to maintain consistency with how other chords are constructed. But, it doesn't sound good. That's why some theorists (Mark Levine) raise the G to an A and have it as 7susb9. If the composer writes phrygian can he complain if somebody comps Em7b9?

  21. #45

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    Yeah the thing I find odd about it is it’s one thing to have an Eb phrygian indicated when you have maybe eight bars to explore a particular modal world which is the assumption I made in my video, but when it happens for a bar in an uptempo tune you have a voice leading context: and that’s exactly what we hear with this tune. Certainly you don’t have time to play a bunch of voicings.

    the voice leading line (F-Fb-D-Eb) happens in the characteristic notes of the mode b9 for phrygian, #11 for lydian, but I’m not sure why a composer would choose the complicate things by specifying a seven note mode instead of a simple chord symbol. Also it’s incredibly standard stuff; 6-b6-#4-5 within the key is big band type voice leading when you look at the upper voices and forget about the bass (which is only V-I)

    In fact the most practical and elegant solution as I see it would be to head straight for the US triads both as a comper and a soloist.

  22. #46

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    This thread looks like several Alexa Echoes talking together.

  23. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Dunno. We might have to see rp's lead sheet/score. But we can't because it's classified

    (It's possible that the author moved in circles where calling a 7susb9 Phrygian had become the standard way of doing things. To us it's strange, to him, not).
    You heard the tune, I detailed the exact sequence of the chords and I told you the notes in the melody. And, yes, I'm not posting somebody else's chart. The information I provided is enough to appreciate the chord sequence. Moreover, my question is theoretical, as in, what possible reason could there be to call it Eb phryg rather than Eb7susb9.

    Christian proposed an answer, which is to indicate the sound of phrygian mode while permitting some voicing freedom, if I'm characterizing his video correctly (I have trouble with the voice audio in this clip).

    Paul alluded to the phrygian label permitting some additional flexibility. I think I would need to see that applied to a tune to really get it.

    Rag proposed that it's a nickname for Eb7susb9, which I think is a practical way to treat it, at least until we get a clear counterexample.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    You heard the tune, I detailed the exact sequence of the chords and I told you the notes in the melody. And, yes, I'm not posting somebody else's chart. The information I provided is enough to appreciate the chord sequence. Moreover, my question is theoretical, as in, what possible reason could there be to call it Eb phryg rather than Eb7susb9.

    Christian proposed an answer, which is to indicate the sound of phrygian mode while permitting some voicing freedom, if I'm characterizing his video correctly (I have trouble with the voice audio in this clip).

    Paul alluded to the phrygian label permitting some additional flexibility. I think I would need to see that applied to a tune to really get it.

    Rag proposed that it's a nickname for Eb7susb9, which I think is a practical way to treat it, at least until we get a clear counterexample.
    Having listened to the tune I’m not sure my video is terribly relevant

    Eb7susb9 is fine
    Abmaj7#11 for the lydian chord

  25. #49

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  26. #50

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    Hey Rick... your question is very useful.

    Generally notation has musical meaning behind. Typically during a head or melody... specific voicings or at least lead lines could be notated, which generally imply the function of the chord within the progression and relationship with the melody.

    Typically phrygian implies or functiions as
    -a tonic or diatonic sub for Imaj
    -a subdominant II- of a implied V7 or a
    -Dominant V7 of a target ( V7b9sus chord)

    In your progression, I'm just guessing, but

    The F-9.../ F-9.../ to Bb-7.../ Bb-7b6.... is just I- to IV- the b6 of bar 4 implies aeolian which just opens the door for another approach chord to The Ebsus13... either Bb9b13 or E9#11 types etc... lots of options.

    The Ebsus13 (bar5) is both the related V7 of Bb-7 and also Bb-7... again room to create harmonic movement towards "Abmaj"...which allows the use of any of the possible functions of Bb chord... going to Eb on Bar5

    The same approach to Bars 5-8.... generally melodic lines imply harmonic options... use of Chord patterns.

    Bring the chart to one of my gigs and we can play through... and I'll show you possible options of chord patterns, which create options for soloing etc...

    The main point is... most jazz players don't just play the same chords or same chord patterns over and over... tunes develop, just like soloing, comping also develops.

    ......sorry... the reason for notating Eb phrygian is just that.... implying that there are options for playing the changes.

    You can create different tonal targets within the tune.... tunes within tunes LOL
    (also don't take Rag seriously..)