The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I tend to think chords. I am not much of a scale player, more arps. However sometimes thing get a little rough sounding.

    For example I often use a melodic minor over a min6 but sometimes I have to really stretch (my mind) for resolutions and melodic movements that are coherent. I can do it but it hurts, and the tensions are a bit “in my face”. I assume that there is a disconnect between the phrase I hear in my mind (before I play it) and the chord. I expect the tensions but they come out more zingy then I expect. If I am making any sense. (Also maybe, part of the issue is the timbre of guitar. I think sax players can play any note and it will never sound as tense, as long as they are in tune).

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by st.bede
    I tend to think chords. I am not much of a scale player, more arps. However sometimes thing get a little rough sounding.

    For example I often use a melodic minor over a min6 but sometimes I have to really stretch (my mind) for resolutions and melodic movements that are coherent. I can do it but it hurts, and the tensions are a bit “in my face”. I assume that there is a disconnect between the phrase I hear in my mind (before I play it) and the chord. I expect the tensions but they come out more zingy then I expect. If I am making any sense. (Also maybe, part of the issue is the timbre of guitar. I think sax players can play any note and it will never sound as tense, as long as they are in tune).
    the MM can be confusing...

    what MM are you playing over what minor 6 chord..and where is the min6 placed in the progression

    here is where knowing the chords of a scale are important

    the minor 6 chord could be a inverted min7b5-there are two of them in the MM scale .. could your example be one?

    like I said..confusing

  4. #3
    … the m6 in minor swing was fighting me … where as the min6 in autumn leaves seems to be a good friend.. just the jazz minor (min scale #6 #7)…

    In my mind, I should be able to resolve anything… right?

    when I side step pentatonics I get a lot of serious tensions but as long as I target and time it right the tensions resolve really well… same thing with sequences

    that is my confusion,

    I think in part, I tend to play too in… maybe I am not comfortable enough with tensions or leaving a phase with a question feeling…

    … IDK

  5. #4

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    You have the choice of choosing what material you want to use to get the tonality or color you want to suit the feeling. Mm is spiky so if you don't want that sound, find something else to use such as dorian, natural minor, pentatonic, blues etc. Imo this is an essential skill of jazz musicians - to be able to manipulate the tonalities and have it suit the feeling of the music. I just got out of my lesson with Tony Monaco and we were talking about doing just that on In Walked Bud.

  6. #5
    I am still working on the Jazz thing… so here is an example of my limited abilities…

    I am not getting the upload right…

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    You have the choice of choosing what material you want to use to get the tonality or color you want to suit the feeling. Mm is spiky so if you don't want that sound, find something else to use such as dorian, natural minor, pentatonic, blues etc. Imo this is an essential skill of jazz musicians - to be able to manipulate the tonalities and have it suit the feeling of the music. I just got out of my lesson with Tony Monaco and we were talking about doing just that on In Walked Bud.
    … cool, so what I am reading is: MM is spiky by its’ nature, where as if I am using the lyd dom over a V chord it will have out tones but will not have as much tension due to the V thing… also watch out for min6 that are really inversions of min7b5

    wow, eventually all this should just become sounds in my head instead of imposed devices…

  8. #7

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    I tend to see the diatonic options as the most natural sounding (including minimal alterations for things like secondary dominants) while things like MM subs tend to go more outside the key.

    the basic example that kind of started it is the D7#11 in take the a train. The G# is a real colour tone, not required to make the common D7 chord (which is just an F#)

    one place where jazz has always tended to go a bit ‘outside’ the basic key is in cycles of dominant chords such as rhythm changes B section. Thats a good place to explore some of these ‘spiky options’, while the A section suits a more key oriented approach.

  9. #8

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    It's never a bad idea to just take the chords of a tune, play them on a piano or use a looper or whatever, and see what each note sounds like against each chord. There's only 12 options.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by st.bede
    I tend to think chords. I am not much of a scale player, more arps. However sometimes thing get a little rough sounding.

    For example I often use a melodic minor over a min6 but sometimes I have to really stretch (my mind) for resolutions and melodic movements that are coherent. I can do it but it hurts, and the tensions are a bit “in my face”. I assume that there is a disconnect between the phrase I hear in my mind (before I play it) and the chord. I expect the tensions but they come out more zingy then I expect. If I am making any sense. (Also maybe, part of the issue is the timbre of guitar. I think sax players can play any note and it will never sound as tense, as long as they are in tune).
    I guess I don't understand the question. If the chord is a tonic minor, played as a m6 that's R b3 5 6. The melodic minor scale includes those four notes and three others: 2 4 and natural 7. They're all going to sound pretty much consonant.

    I'm not sure what resolutions you're describing. Maybe post some chord changes as an example?

  11. #10
    Maybe the program I am using to play the drums and piano part is not playing a min6 or maybe I was making mistakes or maybe my ear is too vanilla… I tried to upload an example…

  12. #11
    Here is another attack at a mp3 upload…
    Attached Files Attached Files

  13. #12

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    I listened to the mp3.

    I would suggest finding the notes in each of the chords, starting with the minor ii V i's. Then, starting slowly, solo using chord tones only.

    Bear in mind that for something like Bm7b5 E7(b9, b13?) Am6, the A melodic minor isn't going to work over the Bm7b5.
    If you really want to use a melodic minor over that chord, a common choice would be Dmelmin.

    For the E7, you might try E7b9b13, A melmin is close, but some will recommend lowering the F# to F, which makes it harmonic minor.

    Then Amelmin over the Am6.

    The best way is to start very slowly and with chord tones only.

    Then start adding in a note at a time to your taste.

    So, for the Bm7b5, try adding a 9th, C#. After that, try the remaining white keys (so you get all the white keys except you raise C to C#).

    For the E7b9b13, it could be white keys except raise G to G#.

    For Am6, all white keys except raise F and G.

    As an aside, I think it really helps to understand the individual notes. Bm7b5 is B D F A. If you play Amelmin (A B C D E F# G#) the F/F# will clash. So will the G/G#. If, on the other hand you play A natural minor (A B C D E F G) it may sound ok. If you raise the C to C# it will probably sound even better. That group of notes, btw, is Dmelmin.

    When your improv is sounding bad it's often because your line is conflicting with the chord -- and you can analyze the notes and figure out why.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-07-2022 at 03:32 AM.

  14. #13

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    Okay, I get it, having listened to the clip.

    The backing is just playing a loop in A minor. Like this, I think:

    Am - % - Bm7b5 - %
    E7 - % - Am - %
    Bm7b5 - % - Am - %
    E7 - % - Am - %

    The key centre here is A minor. A harmonic minor, that is, nothing else. What you're trying to do is introduce melodic minor sounds to give it some interest, right?

    The problem is that you're playing as though the whole key centre is melodic minor, which it's not. That's why it's spiky and sounds awkward. You can't play A melodic minor over Bm7b5.

    You need to restrain your use of the mm sounds. Just put a little bit on the Am, like adding spice to a meal. The rest of the time use harmonic minor and/or the blues stuff, as you're doing.

    If you're just playing straight blues then all you need is the Am pentatonic, as you probably know. But the same applies, you just don't bother with the harmonic minor. But you can still spice up the Am chord.

    The other place you can use a melodic minor sound is over the E7. In a minor context the E7 is a b9 or #9 (although it can be played straight) so you could use E7alt over it, which is F melodic minor.

    That's all. It doesn't need more. Try it that way and see.

    Here's your loop 3 times round. It's played very simply for clarity's sake. The first is just Am pent, i.e. blues. The second is mostly the harmonic minor. The third is a combination of them plus the F melodic minor on the E7, you can hear it.

    There's very little A melodic minor sound, just a bit on the Am itself. Any more than that and you risk messing it up.


  15. #14

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    My phone says no to that file.

    Just make a phone video and put it on YouTube. No need to get fancy.

  16. #15

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    It opens with the VCL player, Jeff, the traffic cone one. At Christmas it suddenly appears with a red Xmas hat on. I don't know how they do that

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by st.bede
    … cool, so what I am reading is: MM is spiky by its’ nature, where as if I am using the lyd dom over a V chord it will have out tones but will not have as much tension due to the V thing… also watch out for min6 that are really inversions of min7b5

    wow, eventually all this should just become sounds in my head instead of imposed devices…
    Yes, eventually you'll learn to use the different sounds as part of your toolkit. 2nd what Christian and rp said. You'll want to start simply by playing diatonically and add 1 or 2 alterations to experiment with chromaticism. Don't just try to run every jazzy scale that's associated with each chord. Also a good place to start is chord tone only solos. Practice making phrases that have a definite start and end.

  18. #17

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    Jimmy’s advice is the sort of thing I normally teach; just triads at first and slowly introducing the ‘jazz notes’; in fact if you swing you can play jazz even with the plain harmonic options. Knowing how to start and end a phrase is incredibly important.

    For melodic minor, I find a little goes a long way. Play pretty much diatonically and then really highlight a #11 upper structure on a dominant chord for instance. That way it stands out. That’s what I like to do anyway.

    Often with melodic minor use in standards it’s actually one note that stands out - #11 on a II7 chord, 9th on a IIm7b5 or b5 on a V7 in a minor key, that sort of thing. You can make a beeline for those notes and get used to hearing them. I prefer to think of those notes rather than running all seven notes of the scale top to bottom all the time - it’s efficient and musical to go straight for the honey.

    transcribing reveals all in any case..

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    It's never a bad idea to just take the chords of a tune, play them on a piano or use a looper or whatever, and see what each note sounds like against each chord. There's only 12 options.
    and here is one of the reasons why I stopped coming to this forum a few years ago. I suggested that every player had the right/option to play any note over anything and just see how it sounded and I recall getting quite a bit of blowback. It was a few years ago so I don't remember the thread/ specific topic/ posters involved. The situation was similar - new-to-jazz poster asking which note to play over chord X.

    Now, in these seemingly-more-enlightened times, you say the same thing and get 5 Likes. (I didn't count but was >1)

  20. #19

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    I'm experimenting with key-centre scale playing these days, after years of arps and their decorations. The major scale is made up of 7 of the 12 chromatic notes. Obviously most jazz tunes do not stay in the same key through a whole A section, though many of them only introduce a few outliers. So with the basic skeleton on the major scale in five positions, I use my ear to adjust on the fly with a fair amount of chromaticism thrown in. You have to trust you ears though, and that takes time to develop. I try not to sound like I'm playing a scales, and find myself being more melodic, creating melodies rather than running the scale patterns, and being really attentive to the backing track. I'm enjoying coming up with things I wouldn't have done with the more arpeggio-based approach. Ultimately what you want is a mix of all the varied approaches.

  21. #20

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    A scale would not be my first choice.

    I'd look for a how a "jazz ma
    ster" approached it, try to understand that; if I liked it I might do something similar. If what they did was scalar, I might or might not do similar. I usually avoid that kind of stuff.

  22. #21

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    ^ If you listen, jazz masters use scales.. :P In my view, scales, arps, and intervals are the raw materials of melody.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    If you listen, jazz masters use scales.
    Inevitably they do, but not to exclusion. Most aspiring jazz players beyond a basic level are far more concerned with what else to play over changes, and maybe with good reason. But to dismiss scales altogether would be absurdly foolish.

    They're doing this tune on the PS thread now. See where the scales begin and what the hell the other stuff is!



    By the way, st.bede, check out measures 37/38 :-)

  24. #23

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    Seems like scales, arps, and intervals, like I said. :P

  25. #24

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    Got to listen to the mp3. Not bad man, you'll be fine.

    So, here's what's going on...

    Generally, folks who come from a rock or similar background assume the easy way to solo on a tune is to find a scale that fits all the chords and blow. But that's actually a harder way to play jazz and have it sound, well, like jazz.

    Very much of what we associate with the sound of jazz is playing changes-- the idea that if you stripped away the backing completely you would still be able to hear the chords change.

    That can be done with scales...but it takes a very keen understanding of how the "important notes" change from chord to chord. And of course, as you see here, one scale doesn't REALLY cut it on this tune...

    Approaching a tune with chord tones, arpeggios, etc. is a more direct way to address those changes, and of course this method has it's own pitfalls...you can end up "chasing changes" and thereby playing notes that sound good but don't really have much direction or melodic content...it's painting by numbers, connecting the dots...

    If anything, on a tune like this, you'd still be needing 3 scales, one to address each chord.

    So now back to the Melodic Minor...

    I think it's important to hear how those notes feel against the chord of the moment, and also to remember that just because they "work" doesn't mean that every note has equal value as far as sounding good to hang on.

    I hope this is making sense...perhaps I'm talking a bit beneath where you are too, and if that's the case, I apologize...I just always try to take things back to basics...

  26. #25
    Thank you everyone. I am still digesting all the information. I have some questions but I want to think more about things first.

    I really dig the clip ragman1. I listened to it twice and I am going to listen to it more. A light went off in my head when I listened to it. I have to figure exactly what the means. That will take a little more focus then I have at this moment and also some work at my guitar.

    Also thank you very much Mr. Beaumont. I really needed the kind words. I think part of the process of becoming a better musician is comparing yourself against others. To my limited knowledge, this is precisely the wrong thing for a person’s self esteem. I probably spend most of my guitar playing thinking about how bad I am, instead of what my accomplishments are.

    I certainly need to focus on some basics.