The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 21 of 21
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Can I add a 9 or 11 or 13 to a (for example in the key of C) Db7?
    If so, would those extensions be played naturally? (No flats or sharps)

    Or is there no such thing since I'd be missing the point of substituting the dominant 7 for another in the first place?

    Thanks,

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
    Can I add a 9 or 11 or 13 to a (for example in the key of C) Db7?
    If so, would those extensions be played naturally? (No flats or sharps)

    Or is there no such thing since I'd be missing the point of substituting the dominant 7 for another in the first place?

    Thanks,
    Yes you can, it will sound like G7alt with the 11 it will sound suspensive a bit or kind of Thelonious Monk. 9 and 13 are cool they are #5 and #9 on G7.
    If the original chord is G7 in a major cadence, you can play the opposite Db7alt, it won't be a very big tension and will sound more natural.
    How many fingers have you got in your hands ?

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
    Can I add a 9 or 11 or 13 to a (for example in the key of C) Db7?
    If so, would those extensions be played naturally? (No flats or sharps)

    Or is there no such thing since I'd be missing the point of substituting the dominant 7 for another in the first place?

    Thanks,
    yep in general the more chromatic notes in a dominant the more resolvey it sounds, think of semitones movements into the target chord. for a tritone sub this means notes from the mixolydian.


  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Gotcha.
    Thanks-

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    As a general rule of thumb chromatic dominant 7th chords (in the key of C, that would be Db7, Eb7, Gb7, Ab7 and Bb7) are treated as non-resolving dominants and are played with 9ths, #11ths and 13ths. i.e. Db13#11.

    While you can break that rule, it’s a good place to start when figuring out extensions.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    As a general rule of thumb chromatic dominant 7th chords (in the key of C, that would be Db7, Eb7, Gb7, Ab7 and Bb7) are treated as non-resolving dominants and are played with 9ths, #11ths and 13ths. i.e. Db13#11.

    While you can break that rule, it’s a good place to start when figuring out extensions.
    And while in C also D7#11 and F7#11 ... All the rest default to "Alt": C7 E7 G7 A7 B7 (all as Alts #9 b9 b13)

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Oy-Vey.
    I kind of know I was opening up a big, deep hole.

    I'll try and keep up!

    Thanks

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    You've gotten good responses about how things usually work.

    I'd add this.

    It would be a good idea to try all the options and decide what sounds good to you.

    Backing tracks and/or a looper are good practice tools.

    If nothing else, it will help train your ear to hear the alterations in different harmonic contexts.

    Whatever you think is correct, sooner or later you'll be next to a pianist who is loudly playing something else, so it is a good idea to be able to recognize alternatives.

    More specifically:

    Db7 is a tritone sub for G7 and leads nicely to Cmaj.

    If you add an Eb to the Db7 (making it a Db9), that Eb can slide down to a D, to make the next chord a Cmaj9, which will sound fine. There's a lot of half-step-down in that chord change, so it will be smooth sounding.

    If you add the 13, that's a Bb. It can pull the ear to B (part of the Cmaj7) or down to A (C6). Not quite as smooth to my ear, but not bad.

    If you add the 11, that's a Gb. Are you leaving in the 3rd? If so, it's an odd sounding chord and doesn't pull to Cmaj, to my ear. If you play it as a Db7sus, it still doesn't seem to want to go to C.

    If, otoh, you make it a #11, Db7#11 to Cmaj7 sounds a little better. The G is a common tone. But, for a lot of situations, I'd leave out the 11, natural or #11.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
    Can I add a 9 or 11 or 13 to a (for example in the key of C) Db7?
    If so, would those extensions be played naturally? (No flats or sharps)

    Or is there no such thing since I'd be missing the point of substituting the dominant 7 for another in the first place?

    Thanks,
    this flat five concept takes some practice but well worth it

    In C..try Db7#9..common fingering Db F B E Note..the F B E is a G13 fragment-no Root

    and you can experiment with a bit of symmetric harmony here also and move the chord in minor thirds Db7#9 E7#9 G7#9 Bb7#9 so you also have the 13th chord fragments of

    G13 Bb13 Db13 E13

    experiment with resolving to C (maj min dom) with some of these chords as they all have some flavors of G7 and alterations in them

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Let me ask you this-
    In CMaj:

    If Ab7 is the Tri Sub of the ii,
    And A7 is the V/ii (secondary dom),
    Then can you use Ab7 and A7 interchangeably?
    Or does the A7 only work well as a passing to the ii?

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
    Let me ask you this-
    In CMaj:

    If Ab7 is the Tri Sub of the ii,
    And A7 is the V/ii (secondary dom),
    Then can you use Ab7 and A7 interchangeably?
    Or does the A7 only work well as a passing to the ii?
    I think you wanted to say D7 not A7.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu


  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    I think you wanted to say D7 not A7.
    A7 is the secondary dominant of dm7, the V/ii in C right?

    I'm mixing apples and oranges.
    Strike that previous question.
    Sorry about that.
    Last edited by 2-5Guy; 12-04-2022 at 07:52 PM.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    Thanks!

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    You've gotten good responses about how things usually work.

    I'd add this.

    It would be a good idea to try all the options and decide what sounds good to you.

    Backing tracks and/or a looper are good practice tools.

    If nothing else, it will help train your ear to hear the alterations in different harmonic contexts.

    Whatever you think is correct, sooner or later you'll be next to a pianist who is loudly playing something else, so it is a good idea to be able to recognize alternatives.

    More specifically:

    Db7 is a tritone sub for G7 and leads nicely to Cmaj.

    If you add an Eb to the Db7 (making it a Db9), that Eb can slide down to a D, to make the next chord a Cmaj9, which will sound fine. There's a lot of half-step-down in that chord change, so it will be smooth sounding.

    If you add the 13, that's a Bb. It can pull the ear to B (part of the Cmaj7) or down to A (C6). Not quite as smooth to my ear, but not bad.

    If you add the 11, that's a Gb. Are you leaving in the 3rd? If so, it's an odd sounding chord and doesn't pull to Cmaj, to my ear. If you play it as a Db7sus, it still doesn't seem to want to go to C.

    If, otoh, you make it a #11, Db7#11 to Cmaj7 sounds a little better. The G is a common tone. But, for a lot of situations, I'd leave out the 11, natural or #11.
    Good idea about the looper. Thanks.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
    Let me ask you this-
    In CMaj:

    If Ab7 is the Tri Sub of the ii,
    And A7 is the V/ii (secondary dom),
    Then can you use Ab7 and A7 interchangeably?
    Or does the A7 only work well as a passing to the ii?
    A7 will push toward the Dmi7 being the dominant of Dmi.

    Ab7 doesn't push to Dmi. Yes, you're correct in saying it's the tritone sub of Dmi but that just means it's an alternative chord for Dmi. It doesn't mean it can be used to resolve to Dmi.

    The Ab7 and A7 have different functions in respect to Dmi and to suggest they can be interchangeable is confusing their functions.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    A7 will push toward the Dmi7 being the dominant of Dmi.

    Ab7 doesn't push to Dmi. Yes, you're correct in saying it's the tritone sub of Dmi but that just means it's an alternative chord for Dmi. It doesn't mean it can be used to resolve to Dmi.

    The Ab7 and A7 have different functions in respect to Dmi and to suggest they can be interchangeable is confusing their functions.
    Yes, I can see (and hear) that now.
    Thank you.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
    Let me ask you this-
    In CMaj:

    If Ab7 is the Tri Sub of the ii,
    And A7 is the V/ii (secondary dom),
    Then can you use Ab7 and A7 interchangeably?
    Or does the A7 only work well as a passing to the ii?
    in stuff like this .. context is the key word

    any chord can work with any other chord..if not directly but within a harmonic progression and voice leading many things are possible

    A7 to Cmaj7 .. A7 Dmi7 Fmi7 Cmaj7

    extended ....Fmi7 Gmin7 Ab6 Cmaj7 or C6/9 experiment with different Cmaj chord forms

    also experiment with scale fragments leading into Cmaj type chords

    after playing the Ab6 chord .. play the notes Eb D then the C type chord .. play with different rhythms

    just some ideas

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Tritones are technically 7b5 chords, which I don't think have been mentioned (as opposed to 7#11 chords which have the #11 note on top).

    In C (as usual) the ii-V-I is Dm7 - G7 - CM7 which becomes Dm7 - Db7 - CM7. But it's how it's played. This is best:

    Dm7 - Db7b5 (x4546x) - CM7

    The Db7 can be altered but it depends if it works or not. The voice leading must be good. This sort of thing isn't bad:

    Dm7 - Db7#9 - CM9

    Dm7 - Db7b9 - CM7 (just)

    Dm7 - Db9#5 (x4324x) - C69

    Nice enough for chord melody but it's probably a bit exotic for background comping.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
    A7 is the secondary dominant of dm7, the V/ii in C right?

    I'm mixing apples and oranges.
    Strike that previous question.
    Sorry about that.
    Just nomenclature wise

    A7 is the dominant of the Dm

    A7 is a 'secondary dominant' in the key of C

    It's only words ....

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    I forgot, you can also use the 7#11 with the #11 at the top.

    Dm7 - Db9#11 - CM9#11

    x5x565 - x4x443 - x3x432

    But, you know, I reckon life's complicated enough.