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Autumn Leaves chords (in Em or Gmaj) analysis says it has a II-V-I-IV in G major. (relative major of E minor)
Followed by a II-V-I in E minor.
Why isn't this simply called a IV-VII-III-VI-II-V-I in E minor?
Maybe someone can explain it to me?
Thanks!
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11-11-2022 10:56 AM
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Later on the songs will actually change keys, like Blue Bossa. Thinking of it this way is practice for later, more complicated tunes. You just know enough theory to see that it changes keys from Gmajor to Eminor which is the same key.
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OK. Makes sense.
How does one know the song is in G major and not E minor?
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That's not really a right question. You're complicating it when you want to combine the definite major section with the definite minor section. There's no need. Keep it simple.Why isn't this simply called a IV-VII-III-VI-II-V-I in E minor?
There's also the fact that, although they may be relative to each other, G major and E minor are actually two different keys with their own harmonic movements. The chords of one aren't the same as the other because they're derived from two different scales.
It's like asking why you don't take a bucketandspade to the beach instead of a bucket and spade. They might be used in unison with each other but they're still two separate things.
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Autumn Leaves is 100% a minor key tune. But even minor key tunes can have movements in major keys...
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For some reason my reply should have come after ragman1's comment. strange
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Sorry, I edited that post and re-posted it ahead of your question. Doesn't matter. You were moving quickly!
The end chord, or chords, are usually the teller. The tune might begin in major but you'll notice both parts end in the minor key, so the overall effect is that of a minor tune.How does one know the song is in G major and not E minor?
In fact, I can't think of a major tune that ends on a minor cadence.
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Also the lyrics are really sad...
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They are sad!
Just for sake of understanding how to analyze a tune, finding a major 2-5-1 movement in a song written in a minor key overrides the overall key for that section?
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Not quite. As Jeff said, minor tunes can have major chords in them and vice versa. And major tunes can have minor sections in them. But you would still treat them as major and minor chords. The overall key of the tune wouldn't change.
And, just to be difficult, many tunes borrow one set from the other. So instead of
Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
You could find
Am7b5 - D7b9 - GM7 - CM7
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Here's a chart they're involved with at the moment.
It's in Eb major but look how many minor ii-V's precede the M7 chord.
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To take one of those -
Gm7b5 - C7#9 - FM7
you'd treat the minor ii-V as if it were in F minor and then flip back to the major. BUT that's only theoretically true. In practice a player might play with the notes a little between the two keys.
This is jazz, you understand. It can be a pain :-)
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I just listened to Star Eyes. What a lovely song!
I see what you're saying.
But, I still have a question about Autumn Leaves.
If I say the first 4 bars of Autumn Leaves are in G major and the next 4 bars are in E minor
that is correct?
If I say the first 8 bars of Autumn Leaves are in E minor that is diatonically correct but theoretically
incorrect?
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to gain understanding.
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Since I'm working on a simple lesson on AUTUMN LEAVES I want to be very clear in the spoken introduction.
I believe that A.L. (Le Foglie Morte, in italiano...which translate in The Dead Leaves....) is in two "different" tonalities:
Major in the first 4 bars and Harmonic Minor in the other 4 bars.
Of course if we compare Bb major to G harmonic minor there is only a different note: F in Bb major and F# in G harmonic minor.
In single note improvisation you can play G harmonic minor on the first 4 bars and Bb major on the last four.......and nobody in the audience will boo at you
Of course there are also the modes from the G melodic minor scale but this is a more advanced stuff....
One last note: when some years ago I have stopped to study and play scales and I've started to use arpeggios my single note lines seems to sound a lot better.
Ettore
Quenda.it - Jazz Guitar - Chitarra Jazz
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Yes.
Originally Posted by MrCoconut
Not even diatonically correct, you're mixing two different keys. I can't go through the whole explanation here but google the chords of G major and E (harmonic) minor and you'll see the difference.If I say the first 8 bars of Autumn Leaves are in E minor that is diatonically correct but theoretically
incorrect?
Chords In The Key Of G Major
Chords In The Key Of E Harmonic Minor
But really this is all academic. Take one look at the AL chart and you can see plainly that there are G major sections and E minor sections. It's ii - V - I - IV in G and ii - V - i in Em. It couldn't be simpler.
There is a series of descending chords in the B section but that's just a chromatic device for effect. Don't be distracted by it, you're still in E min.
Major: Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
Minor: F#m7b5 - B7 - Em - %
Major: Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
Minor: F#m7b5 - B7 - Em - %
Minor: F#m7b5 - B7 - Em - %
Major: Am7 - D7 - GM7 - %
Minor: F#m7b5 - B7 - (Em7/Eb7 - Dm7/Db7)
Minor: CM7 - B7 - Em - %
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Are you doing one of these exercises where you've got to put in the Roman numerals over the chords? And are you trying to work out what the G major chords are in relation to the key of E minor?
Don't. The tune modulates between E minor and G major. The book should tell you that. If it doesn't, get another book :-)
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Hey Ragman1, thanks again!
I thought the E minor was a E Natural Minor.
I didn't realize it is E Harmonic Minor.
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AAAHH!
Well, the clue's the B7, right?
It's okay, it's all a learning experience. So what now?
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Yes, the B7 and apparently only the B7?
Since the II of E harmonic minor and the bVII7 of G major are both m7b5 but other than that they
are immensely different.
So now on to the E harmonic minor bebop scale for soloing.
BTW, I go to that chord and scale site all the time but never explored the "chords in keys" section.
Bonus! Thanks for posting those chord scales.
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Oh dear, please no multiple chord scales over Autumn Leaves. That's the kind of stuff that makes people think jazz is hard.
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I find it helpful to not look at 'jazz theory" as a perfect unified system, but rather a set of observations and suggestions to help people improve their playing.
Many folks practice licks and lines that spell out II V I to major and ii V i to minor, so presenting Autumn Leaves that way helps them fit their vocabulary into the tune
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Definitely don't take it that way! Originally Posted by MrCoconut
As Paul above says (he's a damn good player, by the way) jazz players will often break tunes into "movements." The ii V I/ii V i is a common movement in jazz tunes, with a ton of ways you can approach it. Thats what jazz players love...breaking tunes down into things they have tons of options to play on.
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If you play the lead-in notes E F# G before the Am7 (with the "fourth" lead-in note C during the Am7)...
Are you hearing a harmonic context for the lead-in as an E minor or G major chord?
Try prefixing those contexts before the Am (playing Em or Gmaj7 while singing the lead-in "The Au-tumn")
Which sounds right? Which sounds like the key of the tune? Which sounds best before the upcoming Gmaj7?
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Yes. Originally Posted by MrCoconut
Well, as long as every line doesn't begin E Eb D C B !So now on to the E harmonic minor bebop scale for soloing.
Probably I ought to make it clear, I didn't post anything about chord/scales (otherwise known as Chord Scale Theory, or CST).Bonus! Thanks for posting those chord scales.
I only posted the links to that site because their 'Chords In Key' layout is very clear, very simple. A lot of sites aren't.
And, like you, I haven't really looked at the other sections of the site. Their Guitar Scales section doesn't mention any kind of bebop scale so presumably you didn't get that idea from them.
I don't know where you are with soloing at all, nor have you asked. So I shan't presume anything!
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...and yet Gm7b5... Originally Posted by ragman1
Star Eyes
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