The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Incredible. You're all nuts. Autumn Leaves is a very simple tune, obviously in minor. It has a simple tune and simple chords, just two 251's in rotation. I have no idea what the fuss is about. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

    By the way, it's rather nice in Bbm :-)


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  3. #77

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    This song is not rarely played.
    Serge Gainsbourg reacted to this song (a kind of answer) Jacques Prévert congratulated him.


    That was a great answer to the original song.


    When you know the song, what it means, it's great !

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    Is there anyone that doesn't think Autumn Leaves' first chord
    is actually unsounded Em harmonic context for the anacrusis?
    Exactly. Take away the Em from bar 8 and reposition it at the opening and harmonically speaking, you're left with 'Fly Me To The Moon'!

  5. #79

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    Thanks, Lionel. The Gainsbourg is a good song but the trouble is it's poetry and poetry is extremely hard to translate properly. And this one is harder than most. But the Yves Montand is good.

    Years ago I used to go to the Centre Charles Péguy in Leicester Square, London, and watch the French films. I saw Un Homme et une Femme there with Anouk Aimee. I'm not very sentimental but I did like that one a lot. Of course, I was very young then and it was a different time :-)

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I've done a translation of meaning rather than a poetical one. It was probably written in a letter...


    I wish you'd remember this song. It was your favorite, by Prevert and Kosma, I think.
    And every time (I hear) Autumn Leaves it reminds me of you, and that past loves never really die.

    I listen to other songs, of course, but I find them monotonous; I slip into indifference because they're not the same thing at all.

    And do we ever really know where indifference begins or where it ends?
    Autumn passes, winter comes... When Autumn Leaves fades from my mind then my past loves also will have faded.

    On that day too my past loves will have faded.


    Great ! I noticed this translation was very bad. It's not mine.
    Yours is great !

    But at the second verse he doesn't really listen to another song, he does but indirectly, he sees other girls (of course) but he dislikes their song, so he quits them.

    In French, the term "love" is masculine when it's singular, and it's feminine when it's plural. When it's plural, it's not so important, we could say nowadays it's like a desire, a short passion, a "one shot" relation.
    When it's singular, it's about the great feeling.

    Gainsbourg can't be very well translated, like you said it's poetry.
    Sometimes he wasn't a big poet.
    He makes some English versions of his songs but the meanings are different.



  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax View Post

    But at the second verse he doesn't really listen to another song, he does but indirectly, he sees other girls (of course) but he dislikes their song, so he quits them.
    Ah, of course, it's metaphorical, thank you. I was interpreting one of those English translations rather than direct from the French, which was careless of me Of course, not songs but other girls, other affairs. I have learnt something, thanks.

    In French, the term "love" is masculine when it's singular, and it's feminine when it's plural. When it's plural, it's not so important, we could say nowadays it's like a desire, a short passion, a "one shot" relation.
    When it's singular, it's about the great feeling.
    And this too, as in les amours folles.

    I expect I'll rewrite it. Un grand merci!

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Incredible. You're all nuts. Autumn Leaves is a very simple tune, obviously in minor. It has a simple tune and simple chords, just two 251's in rotation. I have no idea what the fuss is about. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

    By the way, it's rather nice in Bbm :-)


    Really nice! I've always enjoyed your recordings.

  9. #83

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    here's my first effort:


  10. #84

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    Hey, Joe!

    Well done, Mr. C, nervous stuff, isn't it, this recording. As you said, you had no trouble with the head at all, you got all the notes and chords, etc.

    Do you want some feedback on this? I think we should. I wish I could give you a Vulcan mind-warp and just inject this stuff into you!

    First, how do you hear this tune, or rather its harmonies? How you hear it, or feel it, which is more or less the same thing, is probably the most important thing. I can hear by the way you're sliding those notes at the beginning that probably you're thinking in terms of pentatonics. I may be wrong but it sounds like it. But you also have other tools like the major and minor scales and arpeggios.

    You also have chord shapes at various positions. Don't underestimate the value of chord shapes, they put the notes right under your fingers.

    The question then is how to use all these tools at once, so to speak, to create an improvisation. That's where the hearing/feeling comes in. In learning the various scales and whatnot it's very easy to become trapped in them; your fingers want to move in technically correct patterns. But it has to be tempered with musical feeling.

    You've definitely separated the major from the minor properly, we can hear that. But it's hesitant, you're not sure of your notes. The solution to that is just to keep playing each part till you relax into it. You need more notes and yet you need to hit the right chord tones as well.

    So I'd say do one part at a time, say the first 16 bars ( the first 8 bars twice). That's

    Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
    F#m7b5 - B7(b9) - Em7

    Before you just launch into it, see if you can hear/feel something, a tune, a line. Try not to think 'I must follow a major scale fingering pattern'. Personally, I go for a shape, say the Am at the 5th fret. Then I know exactly where I am. I also know what other notes to use to connect the dots, as it were.

    Then the minor bit. F#m7b5 is really an Am6 in disguise so you can use that F# note. Then you can play some kind of E harm run over the B7 back to the the Em. Use a line rather than trying to outline the B7. Dominants can take a lot of playing over them to get where you want. And the D#/C interval emphasises the minor feel.

    One hint, the Em bit can be made more interesting by using blues sounds. Not too many, it's just embellishment.

    So keep going at that. Work low to high. Play it anyhow you like at the low end (open to about the 5th/8th frets) till it feels confident and comfortable.

    It will come quite quickly if you keep at it. Don't expect miracles, there are good days and bad days. Sometimes it just flows, other times it just doesn't.

  11. #85

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    Here's a simple demo, sorry about the lousy quality as usual. It's all at the low end up to about the 5th/8th for the Am.

    It's very simple, chord shape on the Am and then a G run. Notice I keep playing GM7 over the CM7, that gives a 9 and #11 sound. The F#m7b5 is Am6, an E harm run to Em and some blues sounds.

    There's one tiny extra embellishment on the second one. I put in an Eb over the D7 to give a D7b9, sounds nice.



    The point is that it's musical, melodic, based on feel, not mechanical conformity. Also, I'm not in the least concerned about using open strings on this. It's in G/Em and there's no need to torture oneself trying to play something as easy in closed positions.

  12. #86

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    ragman, Thanks for taking the time to listen to my first attempt at improvising over Autumn Leaves.
    I wanted to post this because this recording kind of opened the door for me. I've probably played it
    a couple hundred times since this recording and I've discovered a lot of what you're saying already.

    I really appreciate the feedback and I will incorporate your points in my continued work on this.
    I'm also going to play along with your last version and see what you're doing exactly.
    I loved your last recording. It had a really great feel to it.

    Thanks again for your help and advice. It's great to get this kind of feedback.

  13. #87

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    Some progress. Long way to go..


  14. #88

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    Hello, Mr. C, you're back!

    Before I say what I think, can I ask you a question? In what way do you think you've progressed? Or, to put it another way, what has changed since the last time you posted? In your approach to the soloing, I mean.

  15. #89

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    First, I became much more aware of where I am in the chord progression. haha
    I also tried to play lines that complement the original melody.
    I did more voice leading type lines vs scale runs.
    There are a lot of chord shape lines but I left out the Cmaj and stayed on Gmaj and I dropped trying to get B7 shape
    and stayed with the E minor. Mostly
    The keys have only one note that's different. G major has a D and E harm minor
    has a D#. I made sure I didn't mix them up (though when I did it sounded interesting and I liked some of the "mistakes").
    That alone tells me there's so much more out there.
    I'd say this is not really 100% improvised. I came up with these lines and I fit them in together the best I could.

    This version is very elementary and I know there are lots of interesting and exciting lines out there that I haven't discovered yet.
    I'm going to find them, try and stick to the feel of the original melody, and hopefully add some soul to it.

    I'm playing it at 140 bpm and I like that tempo because I think this can swing.
    But, at a slower tempo like your version there's seems to be more room to get some feeling and a more intense mood into it.
    There's lots of nice emotion in your playing and an emphasis on the most moving sounding notes.
    Plus it's cool. It grabs my attention. And tells a story.

    I'm treating this as a marker in time as to where my abilities and understanding are at.
    I couldn't do this a year ago and hopefully in a year I'll have something I like!

    I think that covers my current thinking.
    Last edited by MrCoconut; 12-09-2022 at 09:48 PM.

  16. #90

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    I think you're doing a good job. The head sounds good. Played correctly, nice and quantized, single note with the right amount of interpretation, some cool sounding chords. You did a good job of playing the changes on the solo. That's important. 2 things to work on: the hokey motifs, and being able to hold a base of 8th notes at times. My teacher taught me that you have to execute things correctly but it also has to have adequate feeling as well.

    Let's look at Miles's solo. He doesn't use many rhythms or even phrasing that is more complex than yours, it's just how he uses the information in his simple lines to create a sophisticated mood. If you're pre-composing solo ideas, definitely mix in ideas from the pros so you can get the sound in your head.

    As far as theory raw material for lines, I've come to the conclusion that if you assemble scales, arps, and intervals in creative ways, it results in melodic language.

    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 12-10-2022 at 07:25 AM.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCoconut View Post
    Some progress. Long way to go..

    It sounds like you're hitting all the chords, which is great. But it also sounds square, as if all your attention is on hitting the chords exactly. For instance, you start most phrases on the 1 of each measure. I would start working on making your lines more rhythmically interesting. Have phrases start somewhere other than the one, and have phrases that extend over the bar lines.

    I like what you do on measures 5 & 6 of your improvisation, where you get more syncopated.

    If you look at the Miles transcription above you can see some great examples of rhythmic ideas to try. It's pretty simple harmonically, but the rhythm is where he tells the story.

  18. #92

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    Jimmy Smith - Thanks so much for taking the time to listen and comment. And thanks for the Miles recording.
    You made a lot of very good points and have given me lots of ideas to work on. Btw I knew the hokey motifs were hokey
    but put them in anyway. haha

    supersoul - Thanks also for listening and commenting. All good points and really helpful advice. I read in Garrison Fewell's book
    That a phrase is a combination of both melody and rhythm. I think I got caught up in melody (some square and hokey ones) and forgot
    about the rhythm. A lot of 8th notes and a lot of starting on the 1, I didn't realize but seems obvious to me now.

    I think parts of my first recording were less corny and more interesting but I was all over the place and not
    following the chord progression at times. Basically, I was lost.

    I really appreciate your comments. You have been very helpful.
    Thanks!

  19. #93

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    A useful exercise I got from Jens Larsen was to select only two notes from each chord, and improvise only with those. This frees you up from having to worry about the melody and you can devote pretty much all your attention to playing interesting rhythms.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffR View Post
    A useful exercise I got from Jens Larsen was to select only two notes from each chord, and improvise only with those. This frees you up from having to worry about the melody and you can devote pretty much all your attention to playing interesting rhythms.
    he nicked it off me ;-) (jk)

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCoconut View Post
    Some progress. Long way to go..

    Good stuff, hearing the changes. It warms up too.

    see if you can get more variety in your phrase starts maybe? A lot ascending arps. That can be a good thing if done consciously, but it’s also good to vary these ideas.

    I also sense that you might not always have a clear idea of where the phrase is going or how it’s going to end. One exercise I like is to build up a line backwards, starting at the last note and adding preceding notes one by one.

    I like the melody statement

  22. #96

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    CliffR and Christian Miller - I really love these ideas! Not sure I know how to implement them yet but
    I'm going to work it.
    I love the building lines backwards idea also.
    Thanks!

    I think I've been confusing timing with rhythm.

  23. #97

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    I've been reading about the question:
    Was mathematics invented or discovered?
    I'm now leaning toward discovered.

    I'm starting to think that a good melody "starts" with a good rhythm.
    I've had backwards.

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller View Post
    ...One exercise I like is to build up a line backwards, starting at the last note and adding preceding notes one by one.
    I thought I was the only one in the world to do this "backward" thing....now I have a brother!

    @MrCoconut: Not bad, in my opinion. The sound is good. I think that you are improvising thinking too much about harmony, scales and notes....
    while the most important thing is to think about the rhythm.

    I suggest you this very simple exercise: play (or write...) some melodic lines only in eighth notes.
    So it's about playing 16 notes over two measures (for example | Dm7/// | G7/// | or | Dm7b5/// | G7/// |) and rest on the third measure (CMaj7 or Cmin7) with a 4/4 long note.
    The choice of which notes/scales/arpeggios/intervals to play is yours alone.
    Just do it for a few days.

    ettore Quenda.it - Jazz Guitar - Chitarra Jazz
    Last edited by equenda; 12-11-2022 at 04:52 AM.

  25. #99

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    I found a version of it that I really like that is a bit different than what I've heard before-