The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    So I have figured out exactly where I went wrong thus causing confusion and mayhem for myself.
    I was working with this book during the summer:
    Autumn Leaves me wondering-book-cover-jpg
    And it says this on page 9:
    Autumn Leaves me wondering-pg9-jpg
    And on page 10 it has this minor scale arpeggio/chord chart (with V7 in place of the Vmin7):
    Autumn Leaves me wondering-harmonized-minor-scale-jpg
    Back in the summer I scanned this chart from the book to use as reference.
    Recently I pulled this chart out and forgot that the V chord was in fact not
    part of the natural minor scale.
    This chart has the dominant V7 instead of the correct Vmin7.
    So I was treating this chord scale as natural minor which it is not.
    There is no B7 in E natural minor. It's Bmin7.
    So while fooling around and playing a 4-7-3-6-2-5-1 I heard Autumn Leaves!
    That's because the one chord that is not part of E natural minor is the correct
    chord to create the E harmonic minor ii-V-i.
    Not knowing I was playing natural minor wrong I assumed I could play Autumn Leaves
    with just the natural minor scale.

    I am glad I found my error before it caused permanent damage to my musical studies.
    Last edited by MrCoconut; 11-12-2022 at 11:13 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    I am glad I found my error before it caused permanent damage to my musical studies.
    Oh, so are we, trust me :-)

  4. #28

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    Lol
    Yeah that kind of damage can spread!
    I hope no one was infected.

  5. #29

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    You know, learning to improvise is one of the hardest possible things to do. It's difficult on any instrument but guitars are even trickier because one can play the same notes/lines in different places on the neck.

    But the experience needed to get through even a simple tune is immense. And experience can't be short-circuited, it just gathers itself slowly, gradually, subconsciously, inside the brain, depending on the intensity and quality of the work or practice one puts in. That's why it's so important to practice the right stuff the right way. Which is why correct guidance or information is absolutely essential.

    This isn't supposed to be depressing, it's just a fact of life. So be ultra careful about the resources you use and the advice you're given from others. If you don't like the sound or feel of it, run.

    Now let me ask you a question. Never mind all the scales etc, can you play Autumn Leaves (just the tune) by yourself? No peering at bits of paper, no books. And can you play it with some real feel and flow, not mechanically like a robot?

    If you can you'll be able to improvise.

  6. #30

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    All good points ragman. I was skeptical of the statement I high-lighted above that said
    they were going apply a dominant V to all major and minor scales but they failed to
    explain why. I think that statement deserves an explanation and not just it's "consistent with most jazz progressions".
    And also, what do you now call that natural minor chord scale with a dominant V? I have no idea.
    Having said that I still think the book has a lot of value. There's a study group thread here and that's what
    first interested me in the book.

    Anyway, yes I can play Autumn Leaves in my sleep. I can play Dirk's solo note for note with
    the backing track. I can improvise a little but I'm mostly not happy with any of it yet.
    Still working on it and improving slowly.
    I'll do a recording sometime and post it.
    I'm sure everyone is excited to hear that!

    This thread IS an example for why people should get a good teacher.
    Unfortunately, I don't have one yet.

    Now, I think it's time to quarantine this thread
    I don't want to contaminate anyone with my flawed chord scale.
    Last edited by MrCoconut; 11-12-2022 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #31

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    Interesting discussion which shows how the mind can get trapped by theory.....

    Me when I first learnt autumn leaves....
    'its in G minor and Bflt major, but then it has 5dominant 7th... That has a note NOT in the key.... Aaaarrrggh, I don't get this.....

    Later understanding:
    It's in G minor but the 5dominant 7th sounds better, and allows for some bad ass sounding licks when u switch to harmonic minor on that chord by highlighting the 3rd of that chord.... What the hell, just go with it.

    All u gotta do to solo over autumn leaves is this:

    Use the natural minor scale of the minor key and diatonic arpeggios of that key to cover most of it.

    Fling in the 3rd of the rogue 5dom7th chord when u are on they chord.

    When it does that chromatic thing near the end though, I've not really bothered to figure anything out for that bit, it's so short you can just get away with not playing, easy life!

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCoconut
    I'll do a recording sometime and post it.
    Yes, please. Just the tune. But YOUR version. With feeling!

    (The point here is that if you can do the tune with a certain style, not just playing everything as it appears on a basic lead sheet, then you are improvising. That's already a form of improvising because it's creative rather than imitative).

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Yes, please. Just the tune. But YOUR version. With feeling!

    (The point here is that if you can do the tune with a certain style, not just playing everything as it appears on a basic lead sheet, then you are improvising. That's already a form of improvising because it's creative rather than imitative).
    Then try adding in little mini phrases between the main phrases of the melody. Where the mini phrases favour notes from the apreggio of the chord you are on, like a kind of call and response thing. The gaps in the main melody are quite long so this works well. You'll be giving women tingles in no time.

  10. #34

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    Very old women.

  11. #35

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    In jazz there is the overall key, but it isn't rigidly defined, like you're trying to get everything fit into 1 scale. It's accurate to say it's all in e minor and that it is a circle of 4ths progression. But in jazz, you get harmonic phrases that deviate from the parent key in order to add chromaticism and color, so they'll be analyzed that way. Hence the view that the tune is a 2-5 progression in major and then the one in minor.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    In jazz there is the overall key, but it isn't rigidly defined, like you're trying to get everything fit into 1 scale. It's accurate to say it's all in e minor and that it is a circle of 4ths progression. But in jazz, you get harmonic phrases that deviate from the parent key in order to add chromaticism and color, so they'll be analyzed that way. Hence the view that the tune is a 2-5 progression in major and then the one in minor.
    Peace to you Jimmy Smith, we've had our differences but life is too short for feuds.

    Spot on post, it's that deviation from being 'all in one key' that surprises the listener and is maybe the key ingredient to this thing called jazz.

    I think it's the skill of a jazz musician or composer. To deviate enough from the plain to stimulate the ears, but not too much that it sounds dreadful.

    Unfortunately a lot of stuff you come across can cross that line!

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    Very old women.
    Depends where u go. Here in UK it's surprising how many young people in their 20s you see at jazz gigs, esp in the big cities.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Peace to you Jimmy Smith, we've had our differences but life is too short for feuds.

    Spot on post, it's that deviation from being 'all in one key' that surprises the listener and is maybe the key ingredient to this thing called jazz.

    I think it's the skill of a jazz musician or composer. To deviate enough from the plain to stimulate the ears, but not too much that it sounds dreadful.

    Unfortunately a lot of stuff you come across can cross that line!
    All of this stuff is a feature of common practice Western Music tbf. Purely diatonic music would be more like Steve Reich or something .
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-13-2022 at 06:29 AM.

  15. #39

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    I have my opinion about single notes improvisation on AUTUMN LEAVES.
    This tune, as we know, is in two very similar keys : major and relative (harmonic) minor.
    A jazz guitar beginner can improvise on the A.L. changes with one or two scale only or with a small number of arpeggios from the two mentioned scales.
    The same can be said for other tunes without or with one modulation only: Blue Bossa, All of Me, Rhythm Changes, Summertime, St. Thomas, etc…….you can improvise with a couple of scales and this is ok.
    My opinion: in the learning stage is very important to learn how to add tension and resolution in single note improvisation. For this reason I have a total rejection for the "Play Mixolydian scale over dominant chords” approach. When I improvise I need to create tension and resolution going in some way outside AND inside the tonal center. The thing isn't easy: I know that much. I can create tension with non-diatonic arpeggios/scales and rhytmic density on dominant chords. No problem if you want to go outside adding alteration/tension superimposing non-diatonic arpeggios/scales over minor and major chords too (anyway I’m not a big fan of outside playing over major and minor harmony).
    We are talking about Jazz. You can’t play Jazz with diatonic scales/arpeggios only……..you have to learn how to use them to add tension and resolution.
    Now, coming back to A.L., this beautiful song can be somehow “dangerous” for the beginner improviser.
    If you want to learn how to add tension and resolution and how to play over chord changes some other tunes can be better: Tune Up, Satin Doll, Alone Together, Wave and many other songs with some (not A LOT OF ) modulations.
    Bye!

    ettore
    Quenda.it - Jazz Guitar - Chitarra Jazz

  16. #40

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    A lot of talk about the chords of AL, but have a look at the melody. A lot to learn there.

    As a voice leading formula, you are leading the sevenths into the thirds. You can intensify this resolution by using, for instance, secondary dominants, 7b9 chords or tritone subs (or in Wynton Kelly’s case, sideslip ii Vs) but it’s all just decoration of the same basic thing which is to say the active notes remain the same

    these are the famous ‘butter notes.’ They also get called ‘guide tones’ in the jazz world.

    Another tune that does the same basic thing is fly me to the moon. Both involve descending melodic sequencing and a quick switch of mode to the relative minor. You can also find a ton of this stuff in baroque music including Bach.

    This is all basic stuff, but you kind of need to know it to understand this to move on.

  17. #41

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    Mr Coconut, I have that book and think that it's great!
    There's a study group on this site about that book as well.
    I'm almost tempted to join you and go through it again but I've plenty of other stuff, solo fingerstyle guitar, to be practicing atm.
    I'll keep an interested eye on your progress.
    Happy playing!

  18. #42

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    Obviously it is in E minor

    It is built from two harmonic sentences.
    One modulates to relative major
    Second one moduates back to minor.


    So it is possible also to see the turnaround as short key changer to G major.
    The only question is of it makes sense to stress it or not.

    It is too short and the harmonic motion is very inert going mostly by 4th so we generally do not hear strong key change.

    But in my opinion understanding that sequence as a swift modulation to major works fine for many contexts.

    This turnaround - sometiems called a 'golden sequence' was in use from baroque times. I can give doxens of examples from that period.
    And it could be used many times in the same piece - often as a climax but not only.

    Later in classical period it became more and more rare. For example Mozart uses it very rarely and it always signifies a momnet of highest culmination.
    In romantic period it became more integrated into the harmonic plan of the whole piece and less distinguashable and less functional in concern of semantics.

    Later it became adapted in Europe to cabaret/variete/urban folk songs from where it penetrated to so-called 'French chancon' style.

    It is interesting that Autumn Leaves is probably the first tune ever that was built almost completely on this sequence.

    Joseph Kosma was classically traned composer grown up on tradiditon of classical music - my idea that he conciously made it with Autumn Leaves.
    He also was Hungarian by birth and grew up there and that turnaround was of course used a lot in gipsy music.
    But I still think it was a kind of concious trick (or even maybe a joke) - to make a whole song from an idiom that was never individual enough to make a whole piece (it is too static harmonically).
    Last edited by Jonah; 11-13-2022 at 12:30 PM.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Obviously it is in E minor
    Unless it's played in Gm, which a lot of people do. That doesn't seem to have been mentioned much.

  20. #44

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    Gm is the usual jam session key. Probably Miles fault. Trumpets like Gm/Bb.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Gm is the usual jam session key. Probably Miles fault. Trumpets like Gm/Bb.
    Yeh and if some 'singer' or whatever rocks up and demands a different key, tell them where to stick it!

    People have better things to do than learn things in different keys to accommodate other people's deficiencies.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Yeh and if some 'singer' or whatever rocks up and demands a different key, tell them where to stick it!

    People have better things to do than learn things in different keys to accommodate other people's deficiencies.
    And that’s how you get the gig!

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    And that’s how you get the gig!
    Hahahaha, loving it!

    I was referring to other guitarists anyway... I'd just use my patented 'move the hand up the neck' technique anyway so wouldn't be a problem!

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Hahahaha, loving it!

    I was referring to other guitarists anyway... I'd just use my patented 'move the hand up the neck' technique anyway so wouldn't be a problem!
    cos that works lol

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    And that’s how you get the gig!
    Or just get one of these, years of practice ( for some) saved for the price of 65 quid ( plus postage and packaging)

    Guitar Pitch Pedal, Precise Polyphony Transposition Blue Pure Straight Through Design 3 Mode Metal Reverb Pedals for : Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments & DJ

  26. #50

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    On a serious note Bruce Forman suggests that students learn tunes in two keys - standard and a fourth down. The latter suits most female singers.