The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    My MM etude, “Is That You Herbie”
    Last edited by rintincop; 10-27-2022 at 09:23 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    After Lennie (and Warne)....
    Dominant I = D MM on G7
    Dominant II = F MM on G7
    Dominant III = Ab MM on G7

    There's a little more to it, but hopefully you can see the diminished symmetry in action.

    On the Rose Room recording, we are in Ab. Charlie Christian plays Db MM on Eb7
    yes i see now , thx

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I edited the original post. Levine calls it Bsusb9.
    Right, sorry, didn't see the edit. That's what I would have called it too.

    I used to have a copy of Levine (in fact, I've had conversations with him) but it got lost somewhere along the line so I can't look up what you mean by his list.

    I suppose putting chords together from the available notes isn't too bad an idea. Whether it's necessary is something else :-)

    melodic minor on susb9 chords.
    Well, it's the b9 that would qualify a sus chord as an altered chord, not its sus-ness, so a mel m would probably sound okay.

    If I'm thinking about scales (which is already an indication that things are heading south) I don't care if there's a note that doesn't fit a particular scale. I'll just play a different one
    What do you mean by 'thinking about scales'? I don't particularly think about them unless the tune is very modal or the harmonies aren't obvious but I honestly don't think thinking about them is an indication that things are heading south. Is thinking about scales so bad?

    But I agree about adding/changing stuff to suit... unless it was all the wrong thing in the first place and I'm trying to stick a plaster on it :-)

  5. #29

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    Are we sure all this melodic minor stuff isn't getting too complicated? It's just a scale and it either fits or not.

  6. #30

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    [QUOTE=ragman1;1227448]Right, sorry, didn't see the edit. That's what I would have called it too.
    What do you mean by 'thinking about scales'? QUOTE]

    I'm not recommending my approach to others, but I'll answer the question.

    Ideally, I can feel the harmony, or pre-hear it, or whatever you want to call that. Then, I pick a starting point and try to make melody. Basically, scat singing through the guitar. No linguistic or mathematical component to it. Most of us can do it on a one-chord vamp, or a several chord vamp, a blues, or a tune we know well.

    But, I play weekly in situations where I have to solo on changes I've never seen for a tune I've never heard. And, often enough, no time even to review the the changes of the entire solo section. Oh, and I'm the only chord instrument. Some of these tunes have uncommon changes which I couldn't hear in my mind even if I had time to look them over. So, I see a chord symbol and maybe have a chance to peek at the next few. No way to develop a melody if I have no idea what the chord change is going to be by name or by sound. So, I have to quickly find notes to play over that chord. If it's, say, m7b5 I know that I can play chord tones, or melmin a b3 up, or major a half step up and those notes are not likely to sound like clams. I might think about the related rootless 9th chord and play mixolydian. It's like a safety net. I've got options for most chords. That's what I mean by thinking about scales.

    Of course, it's not always that new tune new chart situation. I may start thinking about it if I'm not coming up with anything I like, or I've drawn a mental blank on ideas. So, my mind, on its own, without me, may start in with scales. It would be better if the default option was finding a rhythm pattern somewhere in the band and focusing on that. I think I'm better off playing simple notes with good rhythm.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    But, I play weekly in situations where I have to solo on changes I've never seen for a tune I've never heard. And, often enough, no time even to review the the changes of the entire solo section. Oh, and I'm the only chord instrument. Some of these tunes have uncommon changes which I couldn't hear in my mind even if I had time to look them over.
    Ah, well. Is there something positively masochistic about jazz musicians? Not only is their stuff super-complicated but they're expected to do it on the fly. Personally, I think I'd tell 'em to stuff it :-)

    That's what I mean by thinking about scales.
    Right, I've got it.

    Of course, it's not always that new tune new chart situation.
    Thank god for that!

    But seriously, I can't imagine anything more unprofessional than expecting someone to do something technically demanding in public without fore-warning or sufficient preparation. How many professions can you think of to which that would apply?

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Observation: amateurs are concerned about harmonic clams. Pros are concerned with rhythm…
    Aren't both important?

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Aren't both important?
    i deleted this comment because it sounded a bit douchey, but since you responded

    No, the second is way more important.

    Really it’s the flow. so long as you know where you are headed - such as a chord tone of the next chord on a downbeat or a push - and play in the pocket, harmonic choices that might sound bad when used by an intermediate player sound hip. The reason is - pocket, groove and understanding how to play through chords in forward motion, not simply noodle ideas over them. The exceptional case that proves the rule is George Benson, but this is true of all pro players. All you need to do is transcribe them to see this.

    So - Joe bloggs plays a funny note like a major 7th on a dominant and it’s a clam. Wes plays a funny note and it generates pages of analysis haha. Why? Because it sounds good when Wes does it.

    Listening, wouldn’t even notice these ‘incorrect notes’ unless you have really good ears. Dragging, rushing or bad articulation - notice it right away. Even a non musician might. I learned this from a teacher years ago and he was absolutely right.

    The same is also true of theoretically ‘correct’ note choices. Someone who’s mastered the rhythm and flow thing can play melodic minor scales and they will sound good. Someone who hasn’t won’t no matter how ‘correct’ the notes are theoretically. Just because a solo ‘adds up’ doesn’t make it music.

    re scat singing - depends on the student. Some students have good rhythm and sing interesting phrases. Some don’t. If you are the latter category you have to learn some rhythms, and you can do this by singing solos and heads. Scat singing is mostly about rhythm, harmonic choices are generally more straightforward, but that’s no bad thing.
    of course, pitch can be pretty approximate if you have poor sing pitch too, but that doesn’t invalidate the value of singing. You can train your ability sing fancy jazz notes too of course.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-27-2022 at 05:28 AM.

  10. #34

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    "But, I play weekly in situations where I have to solo on changes I've never seen for a tune I've never heard. And, often enough, no time even to review the the changes of the entire solo section." rpjazzguitar

    Hi, RP,
    As a young adult(post graduate) playing saxophone, I realized the importance of what you're doing and went to a local university and introduced myself to the band director. I asked him if I could "sit in", from time to time, and he agreed. I never knew what "book" they were playing that day and it was always a challenge reading cold. However, within months, my "cold reading" got very good. So, now to your point. If you're playing guitar in a big band and reading unfamiliar charts with unfamiliar changes, here's the secret to making it through the gig without looking like a fool. . . YOU DON'T HAVE TO KNOW THE CHORDS/CHANGES . . . simply play the FIRST NOTE of each chord as your basis for improvisation and use your ears/knowledge of scales. You will be surprised how easily you can make something happen. Bass players do this every time they play. I promise . . . it works.
    Marinero
    Last edited by Marinero; 10-27-2022 at 07:21 AM. Reason: deletion

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    i deleted this comment because it sounded a bit douchey, but since you responded

    No, the second is way more important.

    Really it’s the flow. so long as you know where you are headed - such as a chord tone of the next chord on a downbeat or a push - and play in the pocket, harmonic choices that might sound bad when used by an intermediate player sound hip. The reason is - pocket, groove and understanding how to play through chords in forward motion, not simply noodle ideas over them. The exceptional case that proves the rule is George Benson, but this is true of all pro players. All you need to do is transcribe them to see this.

    So - Joe bloggs plays a funny note like a major 7th on a dominant and it’s a clam. Wes plays a funny note and it generates pages of analysis haha. Why? Because it sounds good when Wes does it.

    Listening, wouldn’t even notice these ‘incorrect notes’ unless you have really good ears. Dragging, rushing or bad articulation - notice it right away. Even a non musician might. I learned this from a teacher years ago and he was absolutely right.

    The same is also true of theoretically ‘correct’ note choices. Someone who’s mastered the rhythm and flow thing can play melodic minor scales and they will sound good. Someone who hasn’t won’t no matter how ‘correct’ the notes are theoretically. Just because a solo ‘adds up’ doesn’t make it music.

    re scat singing - depends on the student. Some students have good rhythm and sing interesting phrases. Some don’t. If you are the latter category you have to learn some rhythms, and you can do this by singing solos and heads. Scat singing is mostly about rhythm, harmonic choices are generally more straightforward, but that’s no bad thing.
    of course, pitch can be pretty approximate if you have poor sing pitch too, but that doesn’t invalidate the value of singing. You can train your ability sing fancy jazz notes too of course.
    Excellent post

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    i deleted this comment because it sounded a bit douchey, but since you responded

    No, the second is way more important.

    Really it’s the flow. so long as you know where you are headed - such as a chord tone of the next chord on a downbeat or a push - and play in the pocket, harmonic choices that might sound bad when used by an intermediate player sound hip. The reason is - pocket, groove and understanding how to play through chords in forward motion, not simply noodle ideas over them. The exceptional case that proves the rule is George Benson, but this is true of all pro players. All you need to do is transcribe them to see this.

    So - Joe bloggs plays a funny note like a major 7th on a dominant and it’s a clam. Wes plays a funny note and it generates pages of analysis haha. Why? Because it sounds good when Wes does it.

    Listening, wouldn’t even notice these ‘incorrect notes’ unless you have really good ears. Dragging, rushing or bad articulation - notice it right away. Even a non musician might. I learned this from a teacher years ago and he was absolutely right.

    The same is also true of theoretically ‘correct’ note choices. Someone who’s mastered the rhythm and flow thing can play melodic minor scales and they will sound good. Someone who hasn’t won’t no matter how ‘correct’ the notes are theoretically. Just because a solo ‘adds up’ doesn’t make it music.

    re scat singing - depends on the student. Some students have good rhythm and sing interesting phrases. Some don’t. If you are the latter category you have to learn some rhythms, and you can do this by singing solos and heads. Scat singing is mostly about rhythm, harmonic choices are generally more straightforward, but that’s no bad thing.
    of course, pitch can be pretty approximate if you have poor sing pitch too, but that doesn’t invalidate the value of singing. You can train your ability sing fancy jazz notes too of course.
    Sorry, you deleted.

    OK, when I said both were important I didn't mean they were necessary equal. Obviously, if a solo's going along, the odd funny note (if it is funny and not just a nice jazzy colour note) then it'll stick out like a sore thumb if the sync and timing's off. So, absolutely, a good player will rate that over botching a note here and there which doesn't matter. Joe Pass' signature :-)

    Edit: also see reply to Marinero below

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "But, I play weekly in situations where I have to solo on changes I've never seen for a tune I've never heard. And, often enough, no time even to review the the changes of the entire solo section." rpjazzguitar

    Hi, RP,
    As a young adult(post graduate) playing saxophone, I realized the importance of what you're doing and went to a local university and introduced myself to the band director. I asked him if I could "sit in", from time to time, and he agreed. I never knew what "book" they were playing that day and it was always a challenge reading cold. However, within months, my "cold reading" got very good. So, now to your point. If you're playing guitar in a big band and reading unfamiliar charts with unfamiliar changes, here's the secret to making it through the gig without looking like a fool. . . YOU DON'T HAVE TO KNOW THE CHORDS/CHANGES . . . simply play the FIRST NOTE of each chord as your basis for improvisation and use your ears/knowledge of scales. You will be surprised how easily you can make something happen. Bass players do this every time they play. I promise . . . it works.
    Marinero
    I'd go for that. But it'll never beat knowing what you're doing.

    I once did a gig with a singer/player whose set list was a whole collection of swing standards. I knew some but not others. So I clocked the key he was in and just did it by ear. Not that hard if you've got a reasonable ear. Afterwards they all came up and said it was wonderful, blah, blah, but I knew a lot it was nonsense. BUT it was in time. We started on time and finished in time. And the crowd thought any funny sounds were just 'jazz'. I wasn't going to argue :-)

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Ah, well. Is there something positively masochistic about jazz musicians? Not only is their stuff super-complicated but they're expected to do it on the fly. Personally, I think I'd tell 'em to stuff it :-)
    I play regularly in two big bands. The one I've been doing for years does occasionally introduce a new chart in public performance (but mostly charts we've played before). The leader calls out the set list by number before we start. Then, there might be a minute in between tunes to look over the next chart. These are pro level charts, nothing dumbed down. The players who can do it get invited back. I'm marginal tbh (I can read the entire book, but at my tempo, not theirs) but I think the guitar chair gets a break. There's always a piano.

    The second one is a rehearsal band. No piano. But, it's an older book (500+ charts) mostly much easier to play. I've never seen any of the charts, but at least I know a lot of the tunes. For some, I have to read the piano chart. It's liberating not to have a piano there. I can put in the subs and sequences that I like without worrying that it's going to clash.

    I sub in another. This band goes out of its way to find sophisticated charts. No standards. They prefer piano, but have called me if they can't get a pianist. It's reading the piano book. The band gigs, but only with piano. They call each chart on the fly and count it off. Barely enough time to spread it out on the stand. Midway through, , I see the word "solo" and it's me, reading changes I've never seen before. So, in that situation I'm thinking about chord tones and scales.

    In each of these bands all the other players manage to get through the charts, generally pretty well, but not necessarily perfectly.

    I'm expected to do it on the fly, but rarely in public. Is it masochistic? I think it's like a lot of things in music. If you can handle the blows to your self-esteem you can get a lot out of it.

  15. #39

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    If you can handle the blows to your self-esteem
    Moi? Self-esteem?

  16. #40

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    Yea... many average jazz players, like myself play charts that they haven't seen or know all the time. It fairly common.

    Part of our job is being able to understand what the chart and composer or arranger wants... even when they notate it wrong... LOL. That's what your ears are for... right. Although sometimes.... out is what they want.

    I personally use MM all the time, yes the standard used, but also functionally, when you use MM as a relationship to Dorian or II-7 chord as a reference... you can open sub dominate movement for both comping and soloing.

    It's really difficult to just use MM as triads or 7th chords... you tend to miss much of the possibilities of it's uses.

  17. #41

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    "I'm expected to do it on the fly, but rarely in public. Is it masochistic? " rpjazzguitar

    Hi, Rp,
    No. It's called the learning process and there is NO SUBSTITUTE TO PLAYING LIVE MUSIC. I want to take a small diversion and there's no working musician on this site that hasn't been down one of these roads. Playing live means playing when:
    1.) you just had a nasty argument with your wife/girlfriend and you're going to play in a half hour
    2.) you've been fighting a cold for most of the week and you feel really lousy. It's an important gig and you can't miss it
    3.) there are some obnoxious drunks in the crowd that are getting loud and it's bothering you
    4.) The room is really hot/cold
    5.) You're subbing on a gig and one guy is seriously out of tune
    6.) You're subbing on a gig and unbeknownst to you, it's a polka gig(yes, really!)
    7.) You're a quartet and one guy is always late and you're pissed off when he shows up, again, a half-hour late
    8.) There's a guy in the crowd and he's tapping his spoon against his plate and he's not only loud but out of time(yes)
    9.) You're in the middle of a set and you have to go to the bathroom . . . really bad
    10.) It's the trumpet player's third gig with the band and he showed up drunk, again, and he's dropping notes like a maple tree in Fall. After the third number you throw him off the stage.
    Well, you get the idea. Any other pros out there with stories to share? What RP is sharing is the reality of playing live music. . . and it's the reality of working musicians at some time in their career.
    Marinero

  18. #42

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    The guitarist walks into a big band room with 15 horns, piano, bass and drums.

    The horn players and probably the pianist were playing in bands, reading charts, since 4th grade. The bassist maybe started out playing classical music from charts - and not rock music from simple head arrangements. Not sure about the drummer.

    But, the point is, they took, in effect, Reading Big Band Music 101. And 102, 103 etc.

    The guitar player probably never did any of that. For him, it may be a miracle he can read at all. The chart has some hits. The horn guys have seen them a thousand times and recognize them as chunks of rhythm. The guitarist may have to count them out in his head. Now imagine it's three or four bars of syncopated hits in an unusual pattern (because the arranger wants to be original) at a breakneck tempo in 6/8. Now the horn guys may be counting, even with all their experience. The guitarist ... well, it would be an unusual player who could do it the first time through that chart.

    Or, you get a call and it's a Polka band. The rest of the guys have been playing Polka since before Europe was divided into different countries. Same thing.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The guitarist walks into a big band room with 15 horns, piano, bass and drums.

    The horn players and probably the pianist were playing in bands, reading charts, since 4th grade. The bassist maybe started out playing classical music from charts - and not rock music from simple head arrangements. Not sure about the drummer.

    But, the point is, they took, in effect, Reading Big Band Music 101. And 102, 103 etc.

    The guitar player probably never did any of that. For him, it may be a miracle he can read at all. The chart has some hits. The horn guys have seen them a thousand times and recognize them as chunks of rhythm. The guitarist may have to count them out in his head. Now imagine it's three or four bars of syncopated hits in an unusual pattern (because the arranger wants to be original) at a breakneck tempo in 6/8. Now the horn guys may be counting, even with all their experience. The guitarist ... well, it would be an unusual player who could do it the first time through that chart.

    Or, you get a call and it's a Polka band. The rest of the guys have been playing Polka since before Europe was divided into different countries. Same thing.
    so practice your reading innit

    i like a DAW and a chart. Preferably one with some complicated bits. Hit record how fast I can put it together.

  20. #44

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    [QUOTE=Marinero;1227719] Any other pros out there with stories to share? [/QUOTE]

    An old friend (non-jazzer) I used to play with shared this story. It's Chicago in the 1980s or 90s and my buddy is leader of a very popular, well-paid and solidly booked wedding band. The guitarist has to cancel at the last minute and the leader is having difficulty finding a sub. Desperate, he hires a guy sight-unseen over the phone based on a very solid recommendation from another working musician. The guitarist shows up at his door and says "Hi, I'm Fareed."

    Yeah, THAT Fareed!

    Charts? Keys? Calling titles of tunes before playing them? FH didn't need any of that. Nailed the gig.
    Last edited by starjasmine; 10-28-2022 at 03:44 PM.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    so practice your reading innit

    i like a DAW and a chart. Preferably one with some complicated bits. Hit record how fast I can put it together.
    What you can do is take pictures of the charts and record the performance.

    That allows your practice to reflect the experience of playing, as close as possible.

    Sometimes youtube will have a video for the exact arrangement.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    What you can do is take pictures of the charts and record the performance.

    That allows your practice to reflect the experience of playing, as close as possible.

    Sometimes youtube will have a video for the exact arrangement.
    yeah but that’s like …. learning it … urgh ;-)

    Seriously, it’s always a balance, between working on reading and learning music. Some people are happier with one, some with the other. Some are great at both and these people do not generally want for gigs.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    yeah but that’s like …. learning it … urgh ;-)

    Seriously, it’s always a balance, between working on reading and learning music. Some people are happier with one, some with the other. Some are great at both and these people do not generally want for gigs.
    The advantage of practicing with the recording is that it's easier to tell if you're off the time or the notes. Helps avoid practicing mistakes. And, it will teach you something about the time feel of the band, which will be relevant the next time you see a new chart.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonovanT
    Lately i have been focused on melodic minor and thought i would offer some uses i have found and ask for your opinions on the sound.

    play melodic minor starting on the I of the key over a V#5 chord

    Play melodic minor starting from the #V of the key on a Valt chord

    Play melodic minor starting on the iv of they key while on a iim7b5
    You might experiment with both Melodic Minor and Lydian Dominant to help solve a problem or gain additional insight; both are different modes of the same pitches, so in playing with LD you will hear the same familiar sounds of MM, but from a different perspective, maybe a different fingering. The conceptual application of LD may be easier (more direct connection to the progression chords's scale degrees?). Or maybe not; I may be biased having discovered LD before MM;

    MM - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8
    MM - W H W W W W H

    LD - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 8
    LD - W W W H W H W

    Try imagining Lydian Dominant's tonic on:

    the root of b5, 7, b9, 9, and 13 chords (this was what Christian showed as Dominant I)
    the root of tri-tone subs (this was what Christian showed as Dominant III)
    the flat five of #9 and augmented chords (Dominant III)
    the flat two of #5 chords (I think this may be Dominant III)
    the flat six and flat one (nat. seven) of diminished chords (I think this is Dominant II)

  25. #49

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    Yeah my terminology btw is from John Klopotowski’s book on Warne Marsh. In fact those scales are more like compound scales. So Dom II is up to the seventh of mixolydian than the melodic minor from there

    G A B C D F G Ab Bb C D E
    and then down again

    which might seem bonkers, but actually sounds great.

    In terms of emphasis it depends how you practice your scales. If you always play from the 1, lydian dominant is different from melodic minor. This is how Adam Rogers talks about it.

    it’s then worth trying, for example, Bb lydian on C7 and so on. My favourite for melodic minor is mixo b6. So we use D mixo b6 on C7#11, because it emphasises the colour notes. Playing C lydian dominant can make the #11 for instance sound more like a passing tone if you tend to play them a certain way. A fresh perspective on the same pitch set can be really helpful.

    If you work at emphasising the different degrees within the master scale then it’s a different map. For instance In Barry harris we often talk about the third, fifth and seventh of the dominant scale and practice patterns and arpeggios from these places within the scale but absolutely never about the locrian, Dorian and lydian mode. Holdsworth thought in master scales but didn’t preference notes as the root.

    one persons mode is another person’s inversion. It’s all just labels.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-29-2022 at 05:58 AM.

  26. #50

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    [QUOTE=starjasmine;1227771]
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Any other pros out there with stories to share? [/QUOTE]

    An old friend (non-jazzer) I used to play with shared this story. It's Chicago in the 1980s or 90s and my buddy is leader of a very popular, well-paid and solidly booked wedding band. The guitarist has to cancel at the last minute and the leader is having difficulty finding a sub. Desperate, he hires a guy sight-unseen over the phone based on a very solid recommendation from another working musician. The guitarist shows up at his door and says "Hi, I'm Fareed."

    Yeah, THAT Fareed!

    Charts? Keys? Calling titles of tunes before playing them? FH didn't need any of that. Nailed the gig.
    Hi, S,
    Great story! Fareed and I ran in the same Classical and Jazz circles for at least 20 years. We've talked many times, shared common friends/associates but if you mentioned my name he probably wouldn't know it. However, he'd recognize me in an instant and before leaving Chicago, I attended one of his CG concerts with another remarkable CG-- Paul Moeller. It was a magical performance and ,sadly, there were fewer than 20 attendees in the room. Fareed is one of the few musicians I know that plays at an artist level on both CG and EG. I've featured his music here several times with little or no response. Well, those are the biscuits in the bakery . . .
    Marinero