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This is something that I intuited and experimented with rather sheephishly in the past without knowing that it was a "thing", being unschooled, so to speak. So now I'm focusing on what scales and arps people like to superimpose over a static C major or an Am7 chord, for example. I'm loving Bm7 over Cmaj7 right now, and find it extremely expressive and ethereal sounding. Edit: will post a "progess" vid soon
So what are your tips and tricks to further this experimentation? It would be great to build up a kind of "library" of alternatives.
The "Matrix Moment" is perhaps not too far away.
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09-13-2022 05:22 AM
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Well, Peter, I don't know if you'll take it from me but I can show you if you want.
The obvious scale is simply the C major scale.
Basically, the substitute chords for C maj are Em and Am. Applied to the C maj chord they sub for CM7 and C6. So you can arpeggiate Em7 and Am7. You can also use the Em and Am pentatonics.
Then we have the lydian effect which is the G major scale. The Bm7 arpeggio and pentatonic also create the same effect.
Then we can extend the scale options to the E harmonic and A melodic minors. The E harmonic minor puts an F# and D# in the mix which goes quite nicely. The A melodic minor gives an F# and also the G#, another good option.
There are other options. One is the C harmonic major scale - C D E F G G# B - which changes the A to G#. The other is the C wholetone - C D E F# G# Bb - which is also interesting.
Technically there's the F maj scale but it's not good over a static chord.
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Over a static Am7, the same options occur, the C maj scale and G maj scale. Also Em and Am pentatonic and E harm and A mel minor scales.
The other nice option is the E wholetone.
But there are many other options which can get fairly obscure and need experimentation. They all work providing the context is right. That's about all I can say.
Don't forget we are talking about modes created by these scales. For instance, taking G melodic minor starting from an A, you have the notes A Bb C D E F# G. That's a mode and you can see how it's related to some of the other options above.
F major and Bb major.
G, C and Bb melodic minor.
G harmonic minor.
G and F harmonic major.
G diminished - A Bb C Db Eb E F# G.
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I guess for me it depends on how long of a static chord we are talking about...4 bars and moving on? 8? (thinking of like "modal" tunes)
Or like an extended one chord "jam" kind of situation?
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It might just be a practice thing. Apart from So What, Impressions and Milestones I can't think of any long static chord tunes.
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for E69
if you move around these with a bass player, leave off the low E
0 x 4 x 3 5
0 x 6 x 5 7
0 x 7 x 5 7
0 7 7 7 7 9
0 9 9 9 10 x
0 11 11 11 12 x
0 x 12 11 10 12
0 x 12 13 14 14
0 14 14 14 15 x
0 16 16 16 17 x
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Incidentally, going back to the OP, there's a lot I didn't put in. I left out the blues sound because I thought it was more or less taken for granted, but maybe not!
Then, it's not a question of just running scales, of course. There are all the chords derived from those modes, triads, sequences, slip-sliding, and all that. It's not only a question of what to play but probably far more how one does it. In fact, definitely.
It's actually quite exciting to realise, say, faced with the ubiquitous Dm11 chord over many bars, that there's a whole range of options available. It's not just the C scale plus a C# or G# thrown in.
Of course, one could also say that it might sound less obscure if one did just stick to one basic sound with little variations here and there. There's definitely a case for that too.
Anyway, just for fun
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I've always liked this one. Over a static G7... blink and you'll miss it.
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Let's say, for argument's sake, 4 bars. I'll work it out from there
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Later folks.
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How about Summertime and Caravan, and of course there are others that have 4 bars of the same chord. Originally Posted by ragman1
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I wouldn't say Summertime but Caravan definitely. Do I remember that one! Good call Originally Posted by jameslovestal
July 2017 - Caravan
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Invitation (5 bars).
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(Caravan's got 12 bars of C7b9 at the beginning and the end of each chorus. With a following chorus, and maybe another one after that, that makes 24 bars of the same chord... several times if you're on your own. Testy stuff :-))
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5 bars? Pah!
(Graham do you remember when I was doing what I thought was a rather brilliant version and you gently pointed out to me I was doing it half-time? The whole nightmare's all coming back in vivid Technicolor!)Last edited by ragman1; 09-13-2022 at 04:17 PM.
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BH where you add diminished between the inversions. Just use it melodically.
For major alteration scales that rag didn't list, I like D major, it raises the 4 and 1, and A major, it raises the 4, 5, and 1.
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Yes, as well as Bm you can use the D maj pent (same notes). I thought of that later
Last edited by ragman1; 09-13-2022 at 04:59 PM.
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The original Summertime is Originally Posted by jameslovestal
| Im / V7/5 / | % | etc.
That’s not static.
But that’s something you could do to any static chord: Alternate it with it’s dominant, which you could do melodically, too, of course.
(That is the basis of the Barry Harris sixth diminished stuff as well, but Barry has developped that further, e.g. borrowing etc.)
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Yes, pop in the V (and also the backdoor if it's that kind of tune).
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What I recently use a lot for major chords is both the minor 7th chords on the 3rd and the 6th of that major chord with a diminished as chromatic passing chord (that’s one version of what Barry Harris calls “sixth on the fifth”).
E.g. over C play E–7 -> Eo -> A–7
You could do that melodically as well. There are two common tones for all three chords (E and G) so you could outline that movement by starting with E – G and then play the differing thirds in a row D – B, Db – Bb, C – A. Of course you can vary the direction of the thirds with different combinations of up and down.
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throwing in the "kitchen sink"
the chords in the augmented and diminished scales alone give you many choices to experiment..
ie: the C aug scale has six chords in it CMaj Cmin AbMaj Abmin EMaj Emin so the min chords could be used as different scale degrees in the Major scales they are found
so Cmin could be C dorian in Bb...Aeolian in Eb and Phrigian in Ab..which would open the major scales and alterations of their respective keys
in the Diminished scale you find an 7#9 chord lets say E7#9 which also has a Bb13 fragment with a flat five in the bass..and the symmetric nature of the scale presents
many starting points to experiment so (Bb13..Db13..E13..G13) and of course you can alter these with a b9 and use the Melodic minor and its interesting chord array (one of which is an augmented chord) on top of that..
this should keep you busy for a few hours
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heh heh :-)this should keep you busy for a few hours
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Yea, I should have been clear; The Summertime I was refereeing to is from Jamey Aebersold's Maidan Voyager and thus for relative beginners; Dm7 for 3 1\2 bars with the last chord being D9 (before going to Gm7). Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Thanks pauln, Jimmy, Bop Head and wolfen, I'll see how that works out and will post a video some time soon applying some of this stuff. I'm also checking out a guy on YT by the name of Juan Dhas.
I don't see all the posts in this thread.
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That surprises me as Aebersold’s music is usually much more accurate than e.g the early Real Books. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
It is really a pity that people do not go back to the original in this case as it offers some nice details. This is from a Gershwin songbook from 1979 reusing the hand-engraved* original sheet music (voice + piano).
* Henle is a publishing company for classical not associated with American pop sheet music from the 30ies. I just added the link for those who have never seen how sheet music used to be produced “back in the days”.
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I played Summer Time using whatever this style or approach is called (?).
Sounds solid and old fashioned, harmony is moving but full of space. Especially important for a very slow song, it continuously informs the singer of their place in the song, heralds and distinguishes first and second endings, and signals other song form changes. If the drummer "owns the form" and does similar with the sounds of his kit, the singer enjoys maximum confidence.
5 x 4 5 x x
7 x 6 7 x x
8 x 7 9 x x
7 x 6 7 x x
5 x 4 5 x x
7 x 6 7 x x
8 x 7 9 x x
0 5 6 5 5 x first ending: sounds like it is saying "repeat"
5 x 4 5 x x
7 x 6 7 x x
8 x 7 9 x x
7 x 6 7 x x
5 x 4 5 x x
7 x 6 7 x x
8 x 7 9 x x
5 x 5 3 5 x second ending: sounds like it is saying "moving on to the Dm or iv or Subdominant"
Yes, this is harmony that talks the singer through the song form.
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That is not so far from Gershwin’s. In the original there are some nice counter melodies like after “fish are jumpin’” and especially the one after “and the cotton is high” (here played by the oboe): Originally Posted by pauln
I played Summer Time using whatever this style or approach is called (?). Sounds solid and old fashioned, harmony is moving but full of space. Especially important for a very slow song, it continuously informs the singer of their place in the song, heralds and distinguishes first and second endings, and signals other song form changes. If the drummer "owns the form" and does similar with the sounds of his kit, the singer enjoys maximum confidence. 5 x 4 5 x x 7 x 6 7 x x 8 x 7 9 x x 7 x 6 7 x x 5 x 4 5 x x 7 x 6 7 x x 8 x 7 9 x x 0 5 6 5 5 x first ending: sounds like it is saying "repeat" 5 x 4 5 x x 7 x 6 7 x x 8 x 7 9 x x 7 x 6 7 x x 5 x 4 5 x x 7 x 6 7 x x 8 x 7 9 x x 5 x 5 3 5 x second ending: sounds like it is saying "moving on to the Dm or iv or Subdominant" Yes, this is harmony that talks the singer through the song form.
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