The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I’m running through scales and thought of a way to make it interesting but I’m turned around and I think I’m actually wasting my time.


    I’m doing a ii V I in scales using A Dorian, D Mixolydian and G major.

    Starting at 5th fret A on the e string. Are A Dorian and D Mixolydian the exact same fingering?

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  3. #2

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    Yes they have the same notes

    You need some arpeggios in there
    try
    up the Am7 arpeggio
    D7 down the scale
    land on a chord tone of G

    play around with that ....

  4. #3

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    It may be helpful to have some perspective on how you think of modes. A dorian, D mixolydian, and G ionian are all just a G major scale. There's some free lesson material on my website. One you may find particularly helpful labeled "Defining Modes" that describes how each mode differs from it's major counterpart.

    When using modes of a single key, you may find it helpful to understand each mode uses the same 7 notes but the tension and resolution tones change in relation to each chord/mode change.

  5. #4

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    I was trying to work on the technical skill of landing solidly on frets and using scales as the medium. Kind of a break from tunes since I’m working on learning about 50 songs for various projects. I found if I run scales the songs come to my ear easier when I learn them.

    I guess the silver lining is I realized I might be wasting my time (with this exercise) early on.

    thanks everyone.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    you're wasting your time. jazz lines do not magically appear if you run scales up and down no matter how long you practice them. dutch bebop hero frans elsen once remarked that "it's all just honeysuckle rose"

    you want to learn II-V-I? take the first 5 notes of honeysuckle rose (every honey bee...). for II chords start the lick on the 11 (g for a Dm7), for V chords on the root, for I and IV chords start on the 9 (d for Cmaj7, g for Fmaj7). so II, IV and V are actually the same lick.

    take a II-V practice tune like afternoon in paris or tune up and apply the lick. use tritone subs. do this for three months, at least one hour daily, and it might change your life.
    Respectfully, one is not "wasting time" if they are improving perspective or understanding of something (of which there are many approaches including the one you describe).

    So this "all you gotta do" attitude isn't helpful. We all learn and digest this information that we use to improvise differently. OP should give djg's approach a try along with lots of other approaches. It will likely provide an expansive understanding of not only the root information (in this case modal soloing), but also what each approach provides.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by delo054
    A dorian, D mixolydian, and G ionian are all just a G major scale.
    That's why I've never really bothered with modes.

  8. #7

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    What you've found is the useless application of modes.

    Theres many useful ones though, as well.

  9. #8

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    When playing with accompaniment, the chord being played defines the mode far more than a scale fingering orientation does.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    What you've found is the useless application of modes.

    Theres many useful ones though, as well.
    At least it was only a days work. I was doing scale warmup in the circle of fifths and thought I could get more out of it doing a circle of ii-V-I progressions of fifths.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by delo054
    Respectfully, one is not "wasting time" if they are improving perspective or understanding of something (of which there are many approaches including the one you describe).

    So this "all you gotta do" attitude isn't helpful. We all learn and digest this information that we use to improvise differently. OP should give djg's approach a try along with lots of other approaches. It will likely provide an expansive understanding of not only the root information (in this case modal soloing), but also what each approach provides.
    what is DJG’s approach?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I’m running through scales and thought of a way to make it interesting but I’m turned around and I think I’m actually wasting my time.


    I’m doing a ii V I in scales using A Dorian, D Mixolydian and G major.

    Starting at 5th fret A on the e string. Are A Dorian and D Mixolydian the exact same fingering?
    Yes

    For this reason it’s best to regard them as one single scale. This is how Barry Harris taught it.

    The sensitive notes are C and B. The first gives you the G7sus4/Dm7 floating/subdominant sound, the second gives the G7/Dm6 resolving/dominant sound.

    Treating ii V as a unit is a smart move

  13. #12

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    Warren Nunes taught it as a tonal center. So, ii V I was in the tonal center of the I.

    He taught that there are two types of chords, corresponding to tonic and dominant. Within a type, interchangeable.

    So, Dm7 could be covered by Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bmin7b5. Same for G7. For Cmaj7 it would be Em7 Gmaj7#11 Am7.

    If you think Warren's way, you know that you're in Cmaj tonal center and that all of those notes will work, more or less.

    If you apply arps on the substitute chords, you'll get the right notes accented on the right beats.

    To my way of thinking, if you know the tonal center and you know the notes in the chords you're playing on, and you know the notes of jazzy substitutions, you've already got a lot of what thinking about modes gives you. At least for ii V I's in standards.

    It isn't everything though. For example, a chart may name a mode or may name a chord (or solo section) like "G lydian" or "Eb phrygian". So it would be helpful to have some knowledge of modes in your toolbox.

    All that said, there are great players who are encyclopedic about modes and equally great players who don't know what they are, except perhaps by sound.

    In the latter group were Warren Nunes and Joe Pass. There is a famous story about a student asking Joe Pass about modes and Joe not knowing what the student was asking about. Warren hated the word and wouldn't use it, even though some of things he taught were equivalent.

    EDIT: To the extent that I understand and can explain what I tend to do, it's think about chord tones in the foreground and tonal center in the background. So, for Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7, I think about the notes in each chord, usually including the 9th and maybe the 13th. And, I'm aware that notes from the C major scale are going to be consonant. I'm also aware that I can substitute Fmaj7, G7 and Am7 for Dm7 (per Warren Nunes). And, I'm aware of a lot of substitutions for G7 and some for Cmaj7. I know the sound of #11, b9 and #9 well enough that I can find them without relating the chord to a mode, which I guess is the goal. Doing it this way has its pros and cons. Another post.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-22-2022 at 03:06 AM.

  14. #13

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    I need a teacher….

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I need a teacher….
    There's an advantage to having a teacher. There's an excellent chance s/he knows a good way to learn how to play jazz and will pursue that approach with the student.

    That keeps the student, hopefully, from being overwhelmed by the fact that there are many paths up this mountain. For everybody who succeeded one way, there a others who did it an entirely different way.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I need a teacher….
    Good idea!

  17. #16

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    I think in terms of meaningful note collections. What is meaningful to each person is ultimately an individual thing although the foundations of major/minor tonality are built on certain assumptions starting with major and minor scales. Arpeggios and chords can be understood as scale subsets or as independent entities. Chord pairs can also be a generating or organizing principal of scales.
    To learn a scale from root to root is a primary simple statement. A scale is orderly but music is far messier. Learning scales starting on each degree begins to address some of what one may expect to occur in music but far from all that is possible. I think of this fingering orientation as scale inversions but many refer to these as modes.

    Modes were a historical moment when the major scale was not the only game in town. Each mode had it’s own color variation as well as an individual set of modal resolutions. It evolved towards borrowing dominant V chords for final and also sectional cadences.

    In jazz, there are instances of full pieces structured around one of several modes. It is also common for many to incorporate harmonic language beyond the mode playing these compositions. The largest swath of jazz repertoire has more actively moving chord sequences. Even though the harmonies are in motion, it is possible to integrate the modal colors and modal resolution moves into such a scenario if one chooses.

    Major II V I on the surface is a simple cadential move. In it’s literal form it is all derived from a singular major scale. When one plays against a drone, it overrules how the notes played are understood. Chords have a similar effect, they hold more power to shape how notes are understood. What you were practicing was applying scale inversions to it’s parent chord. It is a reasonable exercise to better assimilate scale inversions. It is technical in nature and sounds as such. Likewise arpeggios can be rendered in a similar technical manner. These both can help build a stronger foundation but it is rhythmic phrase and sentence structure that begin to sound like music.

    Try to be clear in your mind why you are practicing something. It takes time and effort to learn how to find and execute technical and musical content on guitar. When feeling frustrated, always go back to the tape (recordings) or better still to check out live music.
    Also, a teacher would be likely to address at least some of your questions.

  18. #17

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    Thanks for the reply Bako,

    Maybe I wasn't clear that I was running the major scale through circle of fifth as a technical warm up which sidetracked into adding the ii and V modes to it. Which turned out to be nothing interesting at all.

  19. #18

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    There are two popular ways to view modes

    The analytic view produces the modes by shifting the positions of the half steps relative to the tonic and describes or conceives modes with respect to placement of the half steps

    "Dorian is b3 b7, minor third and minor seventh"


    This to say, compared to a major scale, Dorian flats the third and the seventh
    Setting the tonic to C
    C major is C D E F G A B C
    Flatting the 3 and 7 (E and B)
    Dorian is C D Eb F G A Bb C


    The synthetic view produces the modes as inversions of the scale and describes or conceives modes as the scale degree numeral name of the inversion's bottom pitch (first inversion is second mode, second inversion is third mode, etc.)

    "Dorian is the second mode of the major scale"

    This to say, compared to a major scale, Dorian is the same pitches starting from the second
    To look at C Dorian this way, it will be the second mode or first inversion of the Bb major scale
    Bb major scale is Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
    second mode or first inversion of that scale is
    C D Eb F G A Bb C

    If you set the modes to the same tonic and use the analytical view, each mode will have a different series of whole and half intervals with respect to the tonic, so each will sound different with respect to that context.

    If you set the tonics of the modes to the scale degrees, the whole and half intervals maintain their absolute positions, with only the relative position of the tonic different for each mode, so each will sound "the same" unless the different tonic for each is strong enough to shift context.

    For learning what the modes sound like, the analytic approach allows you to compare the different sounds of the scale structures with respect to a common tonic.

    For figuring out how to play them, the synthetic approach reveals that all the modes of a particular scale contain the same absolute pitches, only reassigning which pitch is the tonic.

    For figuring out how to use them, honestly I think most jazz guitarists look at modes just enough to either say "no", or gain some grasp the views, but in either case just proceed to play without ever really thinking about them.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    There are two popular ways to view modes

    The analytic view produces the modes by shifting the positions of the half steps relative to the tonic and describes or conceives modes with respect to placement of the half steps

    "Dorian is b3 b7, minor third and minor seventh"


    This to say, compared to a major scale, Dorian flats the third and the seventh
    Setting the tonic to C
    C major is C D E F G A B C
    Flatting the 3 and 7 (E and B)
    Dorian is C D Eb F G A Bb C


    The synthetic view produces the modes as inversions of the scale and describes or conceives modes as the scale degree numeral name of the inversion's bottom pitch (first inversion is second mode, second inversion is third mode, etc.)

    "Dorian is the second mode of the major scale"

    This to say, compared to a major scale, Dorian is the same pitches starting from the second
    To look at C Dorian this way, it will be the second mode or first inversion of the Bb major scale
    Bb major scale is Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
    second mode or first inversion of that scale is
    C D Eb F G A Bb C

    If you set the modes to the same tonic and use the analytical view, each mode will have a different series of whole and half intervals with respect to the tonic, so each will sound different with respect to that context.

    If you set the tonics of the modes to the scale degrees, the whole and half intervals maintain their absolute positions, with only the relative position of the tonic different for each mode, so each will sound "the same" unless the different tonic for each is strong enough to shift context.

    For learning what the modes sound like, the analytic approach allows you to compare the different sounds of the scale structures with respect to a common tonic.

    For figuring out how to play them, the synthetic approach reveals that all the modes of a particular scale contain the same absolute pitches, only reassigning which pitch is the tonic.

    For figuring out how to use them, honestly I think most jazz guitarists look at modes just enough to either say "no", or gain some grasp the views, but in either case just proceed to play without ever really thinking about them.
    mick Goodrick calls them ‘parallel’ and ‘derivative’ in the Advancing guitarist

    I prefer ‘parallel’ and ‘parent scale’ because to me it’s a little clearer.

    in the parallel/analytic view it would actually make sense to simply name the scale after the fully extended chord. In this way a Lydian dominant would be quite simply called the 13#11 scale. I really think this would simplify theory a lot. Anyway

    As mick points out the advantage of the parent scale/synthetic view is that you learn few scales, maybe theee or four. But the challenge comes in mastering the applications. So you have to know a D melodic minor goes on Bm7b5 and G7 for example. In this system you don’t think of modes at all. It’s generally major, minor (and dominant) with dim scales and things for special effects.

    This is the way Joe Pass, Barry Harris and Allan Holdsworth thought. The latter two had some special sauce scales (in fact there’s a LOT of overlap between Barry and Allan believe it or not) but they didn’t talk about modes really. I also like the way we can maximise utility of material we know - voicings and lines - for all sorts of purposes.

    Otoh with the parallel/synthetic approach you have to learn much more scales, but the applications are dead simple, plug and play. That’s when people talk about Locrian #2 and Lydian Augmented and so on. I would say this is more modern as an approach - Kurt Rosenwinkel and Adam Rogers seem to think this way more. In the latter case there’s an wxtra level as Rogers insists playing E locrian on C7 is different to playing C mixolydian, which is a sort of combination of the two.

    At this point I think this indicates that players who use this system tend to think and hear from the root of the scale. As a Barry student I often play C7 scales from the third (as well as the fifth and seventh) which is the same thing, with a different name.

    The latter I think is another way of varying material. Taking lines and melodies and changing the modal colour. It’s also useful for motivic playing.

  21. #20

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    Hopefully what AllanAllan draws from this is that no one agrees about anything haha

    I don’t think practicing scales is a bad thing per se, but it doesn’t teach you how to play jazz.

    For that you need your ears, which is one thing everyone agrees with.

  22. #21

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    None of this is really necessary, is it? There is but one scale, the chromatic, which contains all the semitones. The seven diatonic modes are patterns of intervals derived from that scale. What we call the major scale is simply the first in the succession of the modes. The other six are not derived from it. They differ from it and from each other in their intervals.

    Confusion has arisen because we have become accustomed to thinking of music as being composed largely in major or minor scales, when in fact these are just two modes of seven. If we thought in modes rather than scales, our musical lives would be richer and we might be happier.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    None of this is really necessary, is it? There is but one scale, the chromatic, which contains all the semitones. The seven diatonic modes are patterns of intervals derived from that scale. What we call the major scale is simply the first in the succession of the modes. The other six are not derived from it. They differ from it and from each other in their intervals.


    What we call the modes are simply the major scale in different contexts. I refuse to accept this is simply a different perspective on the same thing! WE MUST FIGHT.

    Confusion has arisen because we have become accustomed to thinking of music as being composed largely in major or minor scales, when in fact these are just two modes of seven. If we thought in modes rather than scales, our musical lives would be richer and we might be happier.
    You're trolling right? Or do you actually think that?

  24. #23

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    Turn arounds are tonal.

    You can think intermodal exchange inside, like resolving lydian (etc...) on the I of a VI II V I, but that's not the same thing, cause you stay inside chords tonal sequence.

    Modal music is for example "so what", dorian everywhere !

    Litterick, you forget all the other musics around the world like indian music where our half steps are not enough.

  25. #24

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    I do think that. We can all see what modes did for jazz, surely – whether we like it or not?

    We might also compare and contrast the use of the pentatonic scale in rock music and in traditional music. Annie G. Gilchrist observed the variety in Frances Tolmie's collection of one hundred and five songs of occupation from the Western Isles of Scotland, and showed how the Scottish pentatonic scale was deployed in five modes (Gilchrist, A. G. "Notes on the Modal System of Gaelic Tunes," English Folk Dance and Song Society Journal 4, December, 1911, 150-53). The pentatonic scale employed by rock guitarists is, by contrast, monotonous – and not just because it is usually performed in A minor. Modes expand the thinking of the composer and the improvisor.


  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by itsmyname
    Litterick, you forget all the other musics around the world like indian music where our half steps are not enough.
    No, I do not forget them, but we are talking about western music. I am sure that does not need to be said.