The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    No, I do not forget them, but we are talking about western music. I am sure that does not need to be said.
    ok , my bad.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    There's nothing wrong with working out the diatonic scale and arp for every change. You should know that. The next step after that is simply applying altered scales or arps to 1 or more of the chords. The easiest thing to do is just play dorian over the ii, and some sort of altered over the V such as dimished or lydian domiant, then major over the I. You can also alter the major. My teacher, Tony Monaco, will raise the 4 or 5 over major 1 chords..

  4. #28

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    I had never got how and why anyone could think modes are useful to express 2-5-1. How on earth could be "interesting" or "expressive" literally use the notes within the very same scale? It is true though, that in very basic level the chord tones can achieve in some way the goal, so emphashizing them within that very same scale, has some effect, but this case not the modes are in effect, instead the chord tones.

    ***

    Modes are useful in their own right as expressing a mood within the context of a tonality, but in this case they are function musically as a unique scale in their own right, and that is only a technical detail that there are other scales what in an *other tonality* composed by from the very same notes.

    For example a minor tune which emphasizes the d dorian mood, has nothing to do with the C Major tonality and mood. It is only a technical must know and useful thing to know they consist the very same notes. A musician can hear and distinguish a minor tune, or part of tune having darker dorian, or more neutral aeolian or a major tune having ionian or lydian mood.

    As opposite 2-5-1 is not about mood changing, instead express tension then express release.

  5. #29

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    I don’t feel like most of you understood what I was doing or what my question was.

    It has been answered though.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I don’t feel like most of you understood what I was doing or what my question was.

    It has been answered though.
    I understood what you asked, but I was trying to clarify a few things.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by itsmyname
    I understood what you asked, but I was trying to clarify a few things.
    I appreciate that, it’s always good to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I don’t feel like most of you understood what I was doing or what my question was.

    It has been answered though.
    Glad it was answered.

    The OP asked, partly, if two particular modes have the same notes (answer yes).

    That's a pretty basic question, so people tried to help by providing information about modes.

    As for the part about wasting time, I think it may not have been clear exactly what you were doing. People tried to help there too.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    As for the part about wasting time, I think it may not have been clear exactly what you were doing. People tried to help there too.
    To expand on this, because it’s Friday afternoon… I’ve noticed my fretting is a little sloppy and can be hesitant. I’ve got 3 potential projects so I’m working on a lot of songs. Taking “learn tunes” out of the equation I thought scales are always good, if I play those as cleanly as possible my aim might improve. It’s also something I can do in 15 second bursts while I cook dinner or while I have the TV on.

    Then, it got boring and I thought maybe ii-V-I circle of fifths. Which led us to the initial post.

  10. #34

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    Glad it was answered.

    Well, I hate to say it but his question hasn't been answered at all. What he actually asked was:

    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen

    Starting at 5th fret A on the e string. Are A Dorian and D Mixolydian the exact same fingering?

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    thought maybe ii-V-I circle of fifths. Which led us to the initial post.
    Can't go wrong with that exercise. Scales, arps, intervals, patterns, enclosures, licks. There are many ways to think about how to go about creating melodies over the chords.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I do think that. We can all see what modes did for jazz, surely – whether we like it or not?

    We might also compare and contrast the use of the pentatonic scale in rock music and in traditional music. Annie G. Gilchrist observed the variety in Frances Tolmie's collection of one hundred and five songs of occupation from the Western Isles of Scotland, and showed how the Scottish pentatonic scale was deployed in five modes (Gilchrist, A. G. "Notes on the Modal System of Gaelic Tunes," English Folk Dance and Song Society Journal 4, December, 1911, 150-53). The pentatonic scale employed by rock guitarists is, by contrast, monotonous – and not just because it is usually performed in A minor. Modes expand the thinking of the composer and the improvisor.

    Modes can be limiting too, as can functional harmony.

    the thing that expands the thinking of composers is learning more ways of looking at things, and more resources to use. Modes, sure why not?

    ’the more ways you have of looking at a tune the more things you have to play on it’ Barry Harris

    Modes go back a long way although the use of them has changed esp in jazz, I think in a way which is actually pretty unique to jazz.

    I would characterise the move towards modern jazz harmony and making everything into a consonant but extended colour, even dominant chords where as bop was interested in tension and release.

    Good rock players play melodies, not scales. Something something jazz

    Diversity of thought is a good thing. OTOH from what the OP is saying what’s needed is a focussed course of study to get basics like II V I’s together rather than a million options.

    So - get a good teacher?

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    Can't go wrong with that exercise. Scales, arps, intervals, patterns, enclosures, licks. There are many ways to think about how to go about creating melodies over the chords.
    i think running scales and arps is an essential part of mastering one’s instrument. Call me a radical!

  14. #38

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    ...maybe it is true, but I definitely do not want to hear it once again...

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    i think running scales and arps is an essential part of mastering one’s instrument. Call me a radical!
    Lol!

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I would characterise the move towards modern jazz harmony and making everything into a consonant but extended colour
    I think this is quite essential as well. You have to know the diatonic stuff, but you also have to know extended or altered harmonies and how to make them fit in a consonant way.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    I think this is quite essential as well. You have to know the diatonic stuff, but you also have to know extended or altered harmonies and how to make them fit in a consonant way.
    yeah I mean for my I’ve always more success targeting upper structures; but I think there’s more than one way of thinking about it

    like if you always practice scales with an emphasis on the root you are going to be better off playing A melodic minor or C Lydian augmented on the D7#11 than D Lydian dominant. It will emphasise the colour notes better. OTOH if you are used to playing off different notes it wont make much sense to think or talk that way. It always depends on how you were taught and how you learn.

    But as I say I’ve personally always had most success targeting upper structures within the chord. The aug triad in the melodic minor modes is an obvious one, so C+ on D7 for instance, or the E triad. Once you have that concept you can slot passing tones in and it’s not so important the modal stuff. But the concept that’s important here is understanding the extensions of the chords. I think that’s how the older guys looked at it more often; it’s in Strayhorn etc.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-23-2022 at 09:58 AM.

  18. #42

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    Around 1990 Barry Harris told me
    “ii is a wanna be V”
    Barry taught me if he sees:
    ||: D-7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
    that his default scales are simply:
    ||: G7 scale | G7 scale | Cmaj scale | Cmaj scale:||

    Barry taught me react, hear, visualize, and play down from the 7th of the scale, not up from the root. That was very important advice, melodically it change everything for me. He told me that melodically up from the root and 3rd is more importantly for arpeggios.

  19. #43

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    When Christian wrote about modern jazz harmony consonant way, my association was chord usage (not solo lines) Kreisberg or Bobby Broom. They use many times consonant triads, still the whole harmonic process is modern.

    As I follow the conversation, not this was this point. (or was it?)

    I do not hear an upper structure, just because it is a triad, as consonant when it used that harmonic context. As later Christian wrote it is neither modern. (for example E major triad over D7)

    ***

    Something completely different, consonant vs dissonant is a controversial topic. My theory of my own, harmony caused satisfaction is addictive, so the listener (and player) must increase the "dosage" (meaning, dissonance caused exitement) to get the same pleasure :-)

    Jokes aside, this must not be true *if* the particular piece of music something more than its theoretical analyzed content, the listener is capable to listen hundred times over a multiple decades period the very same piece with the same pleasure.

    However still, step by step, year by year, what was dissonant before, now it seems consonant.

  20. #44

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    So AA.... II V I are about Relationships between notes.... with a tonal Reference... and which notes control the Relationships within that Tonal Reference.

    The Modal thing... is the Tonal Reference.

    Different Modal References.... can imply different Tonal References, or how notes react to other notes and which notes control those relationships


    What you seem to be doing is working on fingerings... and yes A dorian , D mixo and G Ion can all have the same fingerings. (5th fret). They're all the same collection of Notes.

    Fingerings are not musical, they're technical skills. You should be able to play any of what we call... The Modes Of a scales, (which has nothing to do with musical Modal concepts), in any position on your guitar. The Guitar fretboard is a 12 fret repeating pattern.

    We as guitarist choose a musically organized system of realizing those... Modes of scales on the fretboard.... generally... either 5 or 7 positions that repeat, They both work... and eventually they all become one. A 12 fret repeating pattern, or sometimes referred to as a 12 fret Grid.

    Someone above started getting into the organization of Modal Concepts... but you need to understand Vanilla first.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    When Christian wrote about modern jazz harmony consonant way, my association was chord usage (not solo lines) Kreisberg or Bobby Broom. They use many times consonant triads, still the whole harmonic process is modern.

    As I follow the conversation, not this was this point. (or was it?)

    I do not hear an upper structure, just because it is a triad, as consonant when it used that harmonic context.
    Actually I find it’s a bit like an illusion. I think I tend to hear the foreground object (the triad say) first and then the context and overall effect second.

    As later Christian wrote it is neither modern. (for example E major triad over D7)
    So this reflects more the layered nature of jazz. Say a jam on rhythm chnages or a blues…. You have a three musicians working from more or less the same harmonic template and they make substitutions, some of which are congruent with modern chord scale theory and some of which really aren’t actually.

    It’s layered up. If someone transcribes a Db triad over a G7 chord as overall harmony G7b5b9 we are missing the organising principle… anyway….

    Something completely different, consonant vs dissonant is a controversial topic. My theory of my own, harmony caused satisfaction is addictive, so the listener (and player) must increase the "dosage" (meaning, dissonance caused exitement) to get the same pleasure :-)
    You have to understand the grammar of the music intuitively. Sevenths behave one way in Mozart and another in modern music, and so on. Expectations of one placed on the other will make the music unintelligible

    In jazz I make the distinction between activity and neutrality rather than consonance and dissonance which are very subjective and loaded terms.

    i associate harmonic activity mostly with Tritones. Tritones have an association with tonality of resolution. A V7sus4 is less active than a V7 obviously.

    The best thing you can do to create a sense of ‘colour’ as opposed to ‘need for resolution’ is to avoid them. Triads and pentatonics are good for this as are thirdless or seventhless dominant voicings and that’s why I think they are used so much, often to pick the neutral bits out of the melodic minor scale. Obvious really want to make the V I not always sound like a V I.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-24-2022 at 02:16 PM.

  22. #46

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    I like your approaches Gabor... I personally love Sub dom functions much more. (who cares LOL)

    Anyway... we're obviously getting into much more than the OP was searching for. But that said,

    There is generally something implied, musically implied, which is generally organized.... harmonically organization. How we choose to imply that is our personal choice, right, wrong, good or bad etc...

    I also like to hear and think in layers, layers of musical organization with references. So at any point within the space, (also organizes), we have ... choices that will sound musical because they have references.

    Even when we don't play something implied, even if we don't know it's implied... it's still there.

    I remember using a simple blues years ago to help someone get past the V to I thing. I believe I was trying to push learning how to play I IV harmonic movement as what a blues or feel of what a blues is. Anyway I comped through 12 bars and never played the V chord.... no one noticed.

    I'm not saying tritones don't imply dominant function, they are obviously the strongest way to imply V I etc... but they can also just be part of a Chord Pattern that doesn't have dominant function or even imply dissonance, unstability, or movement etc...

    We tend to get hung up on short sections of sound and miss what's actually implied. I'm talking generally...

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    "...not up from the root. That was very important advice, melodically it change everything for me...
    That is interesting.

    Usual presentation looks like this:

    Leading tone
    Submediant
    Dominant
    Subdominant
    Mediant
    Supertonic
    Tonic

    Wonder what BH would think of centering the Tonic and adjusting some names just long enough to see it?

    ------------------------------Superdominant
    --------------------Supermediant
    ----------Supertonic
    Tonic
    ----------Subtonic
    --------------------Submediant
    ------------------------------Subdominant

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    That is interesting.

    Usual presentation looks like this:

    Leading tone
    Submediant
    Dominant
    Subdominant
    Mediant
    Supertonic
    Tonic

    Wonder what BH would think of centering the Tonic and adjusting some names just long enough to see it?

    ------------------------------Superdominant
    --------------------Supermediant
    ----------Supertonic
    Tonic
    ----------Subtonic
    --------------------Submediant
    ------------------------------Subdominant
    i think he just used 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

    but he did like the domiannt to dominate, so

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    but he did like the domiannt to dominate, so
    Do you mean the dominant expressing across the two-five thing, or some others ways?

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Do you mean the dominant expressing across the two-five thing, or some others ways?
    This is how we tended to practice lines

    DOMINANT - tonic