How to read time signature changes.

[rpjazzguitar]

This comes up reasonably often in one form or another and I always feel like I'm muddling through. So, if anybody has some tips, I'd appreciate.

1. I just played a chart that started in 8/8. Then the time sig. changed to 4/4.

Suppose the leader had counted 8 eighth notes. Then I'd be tapping my foot 8 times per measure. Let's call that "the pulse".

When I see 4/4, I guess the pulse is the same, but now each tap of my foot (same speed as before) is a quarter note. So, it's basically saying that the music goes into double time.

4/4 means, of course, 4 beats per measure, a quarter note gets one beat. That refers to the original speed I was tapping my foot at in 8/8. So in 8/8 a quarter note got two beats, now, in 4/4 it gets one beat. Tempo doubles.

2. Suppose 2/4 suddenly changes to 3/8. I know, from experience that I'm going to play what amounts to 1.5 beats of 2/4. That makes sense mathematically, because I'm playing 3 eighth notes, where there had previously been four eighth notes. Three eighths is one-and-a- half quarters. Think pie. The time signature could be 1.5/4. That would say, 1.5 beats in the measure and a quarter note gets one beat. I have heard that this exists, although I've never seen a chart with it.

In 2/4, I'm tapping my foot in quarter notes. When it changes to 3/8, what does each tap of my foot represent? If I think "one-and-a-half quarter notes" it comes out right.

But if I think my foot is now tapping eighth notes, I get three taps in the measure (three beats per measure, eighth note gets one beat), which isn't right. The measure is then twice as long as it should be.

So, in the first case, I'm tapping eighths and the tap becomes quarters. The denominator in 8/8 is eighths, meaning my tap is an eighth note. When it changes to 4/4 my same tap becomes a quarter note. First an eighth note got one beat and then a quarter note got one beat, consistent with the denominators. The beat stayed the same.

But in the second case (2/4 to 3/8), I'm tapping quarters. The denominator changes from 4 to 8. If I accept the same tapping-rate as now reflecting eighth notes, it comes out wrong. Three full taps is longer than a 2/4 measure when it should be shorter. I find this confusing. Any help would be appreciated -- what am I missing?

Is the chart written wrong? Maybe it should have started in 4/8? Except that doesn't communicate the right feel.

Help?

[Christian Miller]

If there’s nothing else indicated I would assume a steady stream of 8th notes at a static tempo. In this case you are dealing with additive rhythm and the time signature changes are just there to indicate natural accents on beat 1 (which is something we spend a lot of time trying to train ourselves out of in jazz of course.)

In this case I would probably just read the eighth note rhythms and not tap my foot consciously. Here the 3/8 is simply groupings in 3 which is a very common cross rhythm in jazz and pop but we are just not used to seeing it that way - Doo wa Doo wa Doo wa. If you got to tap your foot it’s a dotted quarter.

you often see this in classical charts even where the overall rhythm works out to be in four (so for example, 4 bars of 3/8 followed by a bar of 2/4). There’s a few in the graded ‘modern/pop influenced’ classical guitar material I teach to children, and it took me a little while to work out. In jazz it’s more common to write out the syncopations and displacements over a 4/4 grid.

Sometimes it doesn’t work out to be 4/4 but if we are still in a quarter note pulse (7/4 or 6/4 say) jazz players would probably prefer to write it out that way.

if this all seems very abstract, a good example of this type of thing is the bridge riff of Here Comes the Sun: how you write it out depends on whether you’d rather see - over the bar line syncopations in 4/4 with a 2/4 bar, or a series of unsyncopated 3/8 bars followed by a couple of 4/4 bars. The first is the more pop way to do it, the second the more classical.

In the jazz/pop case we feel syncopations in quarter note time dropping beats as required. In the classical example you will be told off for tapping your foot.

This isn’t the case for everything - some things will result in the odd eighth note floating around and won’t square off to syncopations against a quarter pulse. If you are playing stuff like this, I recommend basic Konnakol.

[Jonah]

the bridge riff of Here Comes the Sun

great example!


Latin American music - milongas and all - often has kind of 3+3+2 pattern. It is not the same thing but it gives an illustaration of an idea.

In Milonga del Angel by Piazzola (guitar version) there are shifts there and back from this pattern to regular 4/4 if I remember correctly.

And Maria Luiza Anida's Argentian Melody is all built upon this pattern - very popular piece for beginners classical student.

[Christian Miller]

Duh sorry Here Comes the Sun is depending on how you do it, 3 x 3/8, 1 x 5/8, 1 x 4/4 and a bar of 2/4

or 13 quarter note beats how ever you want to divvy that up - maybe bar of 7, bar of 4 bar of 2 -

EDIT tho it is complicated by the fact it’s the second bar that feels like the start of the cycle proper and the first like a pickup or anacrusis - so probably the first way is the best way to write it and it’s not a good idea to feel against a quarter pulse

So probs not a good example of something you can count two ways.

easier to play than count! I recommend ‘hats and houses’ grouping everything in 3’s and 2’s and ignoring the time sig. that approach got me through some very proggy gigs.

[rpjazzguitar]

If there’s nothing else indicated I would assume a steady stream of 8th notes at a static tempo. In this case you are dealing with additive rhythm and the time signature changes are just there to indicate natural accents on beat 1 (which is something we spend a lot of time trying to train ourselves out of in jazz of course.)

In this case I would probably just read the eighth note rhythms and not tap my foot consciously. Here the 3/8 is simply groupings in 3 which is a very common cross rhythm in jazz and pop but we are just not used to seeing it that way - Doo wa Doo wa Doo wa. If you got to tap your foot it’s a dotted quarter.

you often see this in classical charts even where the overall rhythm works out to be in four (so for example, 4 bars of 3/8 followed by a bar of 2/4). There’s a few in the graded ‘modern/pop influenced’ classical guitar material I teach to children, and it took me a little while to work out. In jazz it’s more common to write out the syncopations and displacements over a 4/4 grid.

Sometimes it doesn’t work out to be 4/4 but if we are still in a quarter note pulse (7/4 or 6/4 say) jazz players would probably prefer to write it out that way.

if this all seems very abstract, a good example of this type of thing is the bridge riff of Here Comes the Sun: how you write it out depends on whether you’d rather see - over the bar line syncopations in 4/4 with a 2/4 bar, or a series of unsyncopated 3/8 bars followed by a couple of 4/4 bars. The first is the more pop way to do it, the second the more classical.

In the jazz/pop case we feel syncopations in quarter note time dropping beats as required. In the classical example you will be told off for tapping your foot.

This isn’t the case for everything - some things will result in the odd eighth note floating around and won’t square off to syncopations against a quarter pulse. If you are playing stuff like this, I recommend basic Konnakol.

Thank you for the reply. Let me try to focus my question more clearly.

The pulse in 8/8 is eighth notes. When it goes to 4/4, the pulse stays the same tempo, but now it's a quarter note. So, the music is now twice as fast. At least, that's what happened in yesterday's chart.

The pulse in 2/4 is quarter notes. When it goes to 3/8, the pulse doesn't change to an eighth note (which would seem to be suggested by the 8/8 to 4/4 chart). Rather, it's still a quarter note. And there are 1 and-a-half quarters in the measure.

So, what's the rule? How do the two time signatures and the pulse relate to each other?

Right now, I can't look at the two time signatures, feel the pulse, and know clearly what to play when the time signature changes.

[Jonah]

When it is from 8/8 to 4/4 it is nor quite twice as fast ..

Tempo is fast or slow and tempo is identified by many things including form.

Is the general space that motives or harmonic changes, othe elements of form the same? Or they are also shortened in twice?

Common thing for jazz that we called whe I was a student 'in 2, in 4, back in 2, done'... but the real space doesn't change ... so called doible-time

Here in the middle it is not really faster musically.. it is just the pulse more often

[Jonah]

The pulse in 2/4 is quarter notes. When it goes to 3/8, the pulse doesn't change to an eighth note (which would seem to be suggested by the 8/8 to 4/4 chart). Rather, it's still a quarter note. And there are 1 and-a-half quarters in the measure.

If there are no signs like 'one 8th = one 4th' then by default it means one 8th (of3/8) = one 8th (of 2/4)

[Alter]

A great book to work on that is dante Agostini 4 (rhythmic solfege). Pages and pages of changing rhythms, so eventually you just read the beats, and the time signature kind of becomes irrelevant. At some point I spent a few months going through it (like 5 minutes a day), and it solved the problem forever!

[rpjazzguitar]

If there are no signs like 'one 8th = one 4th' then by default it means one 8th (of3/8) = one 8th (of 2/4)

That's clear. Stated another way, you look at both time signatures and focus on the one with the larger denominator. So, in this case, that's eighths, and they stay the same. In 2/4 there are four of them in a bar and in 3/8 there are three of them. That works.

What about 8/8 to 4/4? If I follow the same procedure I focus on eighth notes -- and they stay the same. If I focus on eighths, then 8/8 has 8 per bar and 4/4 also has eight per bar. When it changes to 4/4, how do I think about that? Does it imply a tempo change or just a change in which beats are accented? How are 8/8 and 4/4 different?

Another issue. I have seen charts which have something like a note, say a quarter, an equal sign and then another note, say a dotted quarter. This is shown above the staff just prior to a time signature change. I'm never sure how to read this equation. Is the previous time signature on the left of the equation and the new one is on the right? Or is it the other way around?

[Jonah]

What about 8/8 to 4/4? If I follow the same procedure I focus on eighth notes -- and they stay the same. If I focus on eighths, then 8/8 has 8 per bar and 4/4 also has eight per bar. When it changes to 4/4, how do I think about that? Does it imply a tempo change or just a change in which beats are accented? How are 8/8 and 4/4 different?

It is like in the Miles record I put above... improvization is in 4/4 and then it comes back to 2/2.

It feels like a stretch of time feel (not the musical material though) pulse... in early classical music 2/2 is often and the difference from 4/4 is 'how you breathe' ...
Try to breathe in and out every 8 in 8/8 and then every 4 in 4/4 ( with the same value if 8ths)... but the melody still takes the same time and values you just breathe more often .
It all matters only in relation to real music (harmony melody) really not just as drum pattern

Another issue. I have seen charts which have something like a note, say a quarter, an equal sign and then another note, say a dotted quarter. This is shown above the staff just prior to a time signature change. I'm never sure how to read this equation. Is the previous time signature on the left of the equation and the new one is on the right? Or is it the other way around?

Usually on the left is the new one and it says how it relates to the previous one (on the right)

[Jonah]

I tried to make brief and crappy video quickly

[rpjazzguitar]

I tried to make brief and crappy video quickly

First off, thank you so much for taking the trouble to respond.

If I understand your explanation, the difference between 8/8 and 4/4 is in time feel, not the actual length of the notes as measure by a stopwatch.

So, 8/8 going to 4/4 does not mean that the tune is doubling in tempo. But, it would change where you place accents.

In the chart I played on Sunday, it went from 8/8 to 4/4 and also said "double time". I couldn't figure out if the 8/8 to 4/4 change meant double time -- and the text "double time" was redundant -- a courtesy, not a necessity. But, per your explanation, the text was essential.

Basically, 8/8 sets an eighth note pulse which continues into the 4/4 section. So, the tempo of the eighth notes doesn't change.

2/2 vs 4/4. One sounds like polka, the other sounds like swing -- even with the melody going by at the same actual speed.

In 2/4 to 3/8, it's the same thing then. The eighth notes are going by at the same speed.

Which means, that my misunderstanding was that 8/8 to 4/4 changed the speed of the eighths. It doesn't.

If, there had been an equation above the staff that said "quarter = eighth", then, that would mean that the new quarter is played like the old eighth. And, that's double time.

I hope I have this right.

[Jonah]

If I understand your explanation, the difference between 8/8 and 4/4 is in time feel, not the actual length of the notes as measure by a stopwatch.

Well .. I can't say for sure without seeing particular score (who knows what is the fancy of tge score writer?)
But in my personal opinion the switch makes sense only if something (melody/harmony) stays the same.
Otherwise one can just keep the time signature the same and indicate faster tempo.

[DonEsteban]

Different meter = different feel (and different number of beats, but the important is the feel)

Know the difference and you can read it.

Nice lesson here:

musictheory.net


(click on the arrow to go through the steps)

[RJVB]

1. The pulse in 8/8 is eighth notes. When it goes to 4/4, the pulse stays the same tempo, but now it's a quarter note. So, the music is now twice as fast.

2. When it is from 8/8 to 4/4 it is nor quite twice as fast ..

Both statements can be true depending on what you do with the pulse (tactus). If you keep the pulse constant as 1) then you will indeed be playing twice as fast. If instead you keep note lengths the same you are just dividing the number of foot-taps per measure by two. That way, the tempo remains the same but it will feel lighter (i.e. faster).

This is like playing a 4/4 as if it were written as a 2/2, or like you need to "feel" a minuet (per 2 measures). If memory serves me well Bruno Weil makes a number of relevant remarks about this in the liner notes to his wonderful recordings of the Schubert symphonies, probably the last one where he creates a very convincing Sturm und Drang feeling by playing (at least) the 2nd movement as if it were a 2/4 (disclaimer: it's been ages since I read those notes!).

[Christian Miller]

Thank you for the reply. Let me try to focus my question more clearly.

The pulse in 8/8 is eighth notes. When it goes to 4/4, the pulse stays the same tempo, but now it's a quarter note. So, the music is now twice as fast. At least, that's what happened in yesterday's chart.

The pulse in 2/4 is quarter notes. When it goes to 3/8, the pulse doesn't change to an eighth note (which would seem to be suggested by the 8/8 to 4/4 chart). Rather, it's still a quarter note. And there are 1 and-a-half quarters in the measure.

So, what's the rule? How do the two time signatures and the pulse relate to each other?

Right now, I can't look at the two time signatures, feel the pulse, and know clearly what to play when the time signature changes.

ok so - it would really be most helpful if I could see the chart because I don’t quite understand fact you mean. It also depends on the music

so if there’s something like - quarter note = eighth note written above the staff you have a metrical modulation and you need to understand the metrical relationship.

if not then it’s eighth notes at a consistent speed (because that’s the lowest common denominator with the different time sigs.

If it’s music primarily written in eighth notes, I would quite simply read the eighth notes and forget about the time signature as this becomes almost like a matter of notational convenience. You could write out the music with no bar lines but then it would be harder to read.

HCTS is an example of this type of thing. In this case it’s easier to play 8th notes. If I was reading this stuff I would group in three (ta ki da) and two (ta ka) most if not all metrics can be broken down to groups of two and three. The metric then is kind of secondary importance.

But not all music is like this, so I’d need to look at the chart. If it’s for triplets and stuff you need a more sophisticated understanding.

[ragman1]

It's about how the eighth notes are grouped.

4/4 is

|| || || ||

but 8/8 is

||| ||| ||

as far as I know.

[rpjazzguitar]

Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the chart.

I tried to ask a generalized question. How to approach 8/8 changing to 4/4 with no metric modulation indicated (no equation above the staff).

As I understand it, at this moment, the way to think about this is to keep the shortest subdivision the same, unless otherwise indicated. So, in this case, the eighth note stays at the same speed. My drummer friend writes eighth=eighth on his charts to eliminate any possibility for confusion.

In 8/8 there are 8 "beats" per measure. When it changes to 4/4 the "beat" is now two of those eighth notes. So, the eighth note pulse is the "beat" in 8/8, but not in 4/4. In 4/4 two eighth notes become one "beat". No change in tempo.

It was this distinction between pulse and beat that had me confused. I was thinking the eighth note in 8/8 was the beat (and the pulse) and in 4/4 the quarter note took over as the beat, meaning the music doubles in speed. Apparently, that's incorrect.

What actually happened in the room was this:

The leader announced that the count-in would be in 4. He counted 4 beats and the band started playing. Slow tempo.

Somewhere on the second page, the time sig. changed to 4/4 with text above the staff reading "double time".

The band then played twice as fast. To me, it sounded like a slow 4 to double time. I don't know what the arranger was trying to communicate. I do know that he was a top pro arranger. This is not inexperience or lack of knowledge.

One other point about the equation for metric modulation, e.g. quarter note = dotted quarter (written with notes, not text). One long term drummer friend said that he's certain that the old value is on the left and the new value (the one the music is changing to) is on the right. That disagrees with one of the comments on here, if I understood it. In any case, Wiki seems to agree with my drummer friend.

[docsteve]

To me, the 4/4 — 8/8 change suggests double time feel. A quarter note is still a quarter note tempo-wise, but the rhythm shifts to eight beats per bar. To get the idea, listen to the Miles recording linked above, or to his recording of Round Midnight.

For weeks, I have been trying to teach this to our drummer. He is an old rock‘n‘roller who only started jazz in his retirement. OMG. Don’t get me started. Not even videos help.


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[rpjazzguitar]

To me, the 4/4 — 8/8 change suggests double time feel. A quarter note is still a quarter note tempo-wise, but the rhythm shifts to eight beats per bar. To get the idea, listen to the Miles recording linked above, or to his recording of Round Midnight.

For weeks, I have been trying to teach this to our drummer. He is an old rock‘n‘roller who only started jazz in his retirement. OMG. Don’t get me started. Not even videos help.


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Makes sense. In the case I wrote about, it was 8/8 slow to 4/4 in double time.

For your drummer, I'd offer this suggestion.

Play Wave at a modest tempo. Start with a vamp on a ii V

Then, play the vamp in double time feel (don't tell him it's Wave) until he's got it.

Then bring in the melody, which will sound like you're playing it at half speed.

If the light doesn't go on then, the bulb is out.

[Jonah]

This Weiss fantasia is typical baroque reverse double time 'alla breve'... the prelude goes on 4/4 and when it flows into fugato it changes to 2/2.

In the score in tabs you can see C indicating 4/4 at the beginning and crossed C at the end of the second line from below meaning 2/2.

(No special explanation about value equivalent. But if I had to indicate it I would definitely put 'one half = one quater'
New one on the left...
I can't actually imagine the opposite it would look strange to me. I do not knowcif there are some exact rules for that. It intuitively seems kind of obvious. Even from mathematical point of view... the new one/ unknown us usually on the left side and it equals to something we already know).

Here are two records.

First is correct. Second is wrong.

[Christian Miller]

Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the chart.

I tried to ask a generalized question. How to approach 8/8 changing to 4/4 with no metric modulation indicated (no equation above the staff).

As I understand it, at this moment, the way to think about this is to keep the shortest subdivision the same, unless otherwise indicated. So, in this case, the eighth note stays at the same speed. My drummer friend writes eighth=eighth on his charts to eliminate any possibility for confusion.

Yes, I think that’s what I was trying to say - constant eights unless otherwise shown.

In 8/8 there are 8 "beats" per measure. When it changes to 4/4 the "beat" is now two of those eighth notes. So, the eighth note pulse is the "beat" in 8/8, but not in 4/4. In 4/4 two eighth notes become one "beat". No change in tempo.

Yes that’s what I would think from what you said. So if I’m reading melodies I would just read it as in 4/4… but if I’m playing groove I might well make a difference.

It was this distinction between pulse and beat that had me confused. I was thinking the eighth note in 8/8 was the beat (and the pulse) and in 4/4 the quarter note took over as the beat, meaning the music doubles in speed. Apparently, that's incorrect

Yeah I think you were thinking of it as eighth note = quarter note modulation

What actually happened in the room was this:

The leader announced that the count-in would be in 4. He counted 4 beats and the band started playing. Slow tempo.

Somewhere on the second page, the time sig. changed to 4/4 with text above the staff reading "double time".

The band then played twice as fast. To me, it sounded like a slow 4 to double time. I don't know what the arranger was trying to communicate. I do know that he was a top pro arranger. This is not inexperience or lack of knowledge.

haha interesting

Well the double time there is the obviously an important piece of info. Would also depend on whether it was double time or double time feel.

So what you said/what I’ve been saying would get you through the chart but it wouldn’t explain the 8/8. Like you I would have expected double time there.

Yeah you got me! Maybe someone else has more of a clue? Never seen 8/8 before tbh.

One other point about the equation for metric modulation, e.g. quarter note = dotted quarter (written with notes, not text). One long term drummer friend said that he's certain that the old value is on the left and the new value (the one the music is changing to) is on the right. That disagrees with one of the comments on here, if I understood it. In any case, Wiki seems to agree with my drummer friend.

I would expect your drummer friend is right.

[Jonah]

would expect your drummer friend is right.

Probably really the convention is this.
Never thought about it just somehow understood what was meant.
When I began to imagine it abstractly first idea was new value should on the left...
I tried to search in the scores I have at home but could not find examples.

Sorry if I misled... but I still think putting new value first seems more logical.

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=Christian
Well the double time there is the obviously an important piece of info. Would also depend on whether it was double time or double time feel.

So what you said/what I’ve been saying would get you through the chart but it wouldn’t explain the 8/8. Like you I would have expected double time there.

I would expect your drummer friend is right.[/QUOTE]

Right. The chart said double time, and that's what the band played. But I wondered, what did the change in time sig mean from 8/8 to 4/4?
That is, if there hadn't been any text referring to double time.

As far as I could tell all we did was go from a slow four to a four at twice the tempo.

The band plays monthly. Next month I'll photograph the chart.

[Jonah]

While re-listening to Weiss fantasia I thought there's an interesting example.

Compare episode at 0:11

With the sequences in fugato section at 02:27

The texture is the same in both cases (chordal arpegiated texture), but on the second case it is twice concised - more notes per beat.
I think that opens up the idea of double-time very clearly.. the relation between what was before what came later.

When fugato begins it introduces new material with new breath but in sequences episode the texture from first section returns in a new form defined by double-time