How to read time signature changes.

[rpjazzguitar]

Here's what I learned, with help from all who responded.

1. In a change from 8/8 to 4/4, the eighth note stays the same. It wouldn't hurt if the chart said "eighth=eighth" just to keep people from having to wonder. Some people write that in, most don't, apparently.

2. My confusion stemmed from the usual definition of 4/4. Four beats per measure, quarter note gets one beat. I thought, incorrectly, that meant that, since the tune started in 8/8, each eighth was one beat. And, that would be the same "beat" when the tune went into 4/4. Nope.

3. The metric modulation equation has the old meter on the left and the new meter on the right.

4. As far as I can tell, musicians don't broadly agree on what it means when 8/8 goes to 4/4. It does not indicate a doubling in tempo. It probably does indicate a change in feel, but I don't think anybody was clear on exactly what that change might be, or if there's even one answer. People did offer possibilities. For example, Rag's comment about 3 3 2 made sense. If you were grouping the melody as 3 3 2, then writing it in 8 makes sense. When we played it, it sounded like a slow 4 to me.

[Jonah]

I see that I generalized the topci too much... changing 8/8 to 4/4 and changing 4/4 to 2/2 are different things in real practical use.
First would most probably be for some accent shifts within on 4th (like milongas I posted at the beginning etc.).

Second would mostly mean 'change of breath'.

I focused too much on the last though the question was seemingly about the first...

[DonEsteban]

1. In a change from 8/8 to 4/4, the eighth note stays the same.

Of course, in the example I provide it's 80 bpm. Beat in this case defined quarter note.

4. As far as I can tell, musicians don't broadly agree on what it means when 8/8 goes to 4/4. It does not indicate a doubling in tempo. It probably does indicate a change in feel, but I don't think anybody was clear on exactly what that change might be, or if there's even one answer. People did offer possibilities. For example, Rag's comment about 3 3 2 made sense. If you were grouping the melody as 3 3 2, then writing it in 8 makes sense. When we played it, it sounded like a slow 4 to me.

The feeling changes, not the time. A quarter note is still 80 bpm. Look at the 3/4 vs. 6/8, maybe that makes it more clear.

Dancing a waltz you'll count | ONE two three | ONE two three | (Two measures here because waltz dance movement requires 2 bars.)
Playing All Blues you'll count | ONE two three FOUR five six |

The same applies analogously to 4/4 vs. 8/8 which is why I added the accents to make it more clear.

In 4/4 you'll count: | ONE two THREE four |
Or the second bar would count: | ONE and two and THREE and four and|
While in 8/8 you'd count: | ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight |

The tempo remains the same in all 8 measures... 80 bpm (80 quarter notes per minute or the equivalent in eights)

[Christian Miller]

Of course, in the example I provide it's 80 bpm. Beat in this case defined quarter note.



The feeling changes, not the time. A quarter note is still 80 bpm. Look at the 3/4 vs. 6/8, maybe that makes it clearer.

Dancing a waltz you'll count | ONE two three | ONE two three | (Two measures here because waltz dance movement requires 2 bars.)
Playing All Blues you'll count | ONE two three FOUR five six |

The same applies analogously to 4/4 vs. 8/8 which is why I added the accents to make it clearer.

In 4/4 you'll count: | ONE two THREE four |
Or the second bar would count: | ONE and two and THREE and four and|
While in 8/8 you'd count: | ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight |

The tempo remains the same in all 8 measures... 80 bpm (80 quarter notes per minute or the equivalent in eights)

You know with stuff like that the correct beaming for the grouping is an enormous help. The accentuation is usually implied.

Its literally never come up that I’ve seen a tresillo rhythm indicated this way using an 8/8 sig, but I like the idea that there’s a way of specifying that accentuation because it’s so incredibly common.

Makes sense as many ‘n/8’ time sigs in jazz or pop/rock are divided into groupings of 2 and 3 which is again a way it differs from classical. So a jazz 9/8 might be grouped 3, 2, 2, 2 rather than the classical compound triple time (3 3 3). I also am reminded of that 6/4 in Synchronicity by Police where it’s subdivided into a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 2/4.

ultimately jazz and pop time (and African diaspora rhythm generally) is usually based on an irregular ‘clave’ of some kind rather than the regular strong/weak on/off stress patterns of European music and the notation has been adapted accordingly.

[Jonah]

The tempo remains the same in all 8 measures... 80 bpm (80 quarter notes per minute or the equivalent in eights)

I think it is also interesting that mathematically it is correct but almost always this kind of changes create the feeling of tempo changing.
It depends on particular music of course...

In your first example 4/4 to 8/8 (3+3+2)... two groups of 3/8 will create the feeling that it slowed down a bit, the pulse becomes more spacious (on 1/8) even though 2/8 compensate it.. I am almost sure that it will create a feeling of slower tempo...

After all to me tempo (not bpm but characteristics like fast/slow) is very subtle thing.. and created by all the components of musical piece and after or it is much about how it feels... bpms can seem fast in concern of rhythm but music can sound quite moderate tempo...

[rpjazzguitar]

I see that I generalized the topci too much... changing 8/8 to 4/4 and changing 4/4 to 2/2 are different things in real practical use.
First would most probably be for some accent shifts within on 4th (like milongas I posted at the beginning etc.).

Second would mostly mean 'change of breath'.

I focused too much on the last though the question was seemingly about the first...

I think you're right.

[rpjazzguitar]

Of course, in the example I provide it's 80 bpm. Beat in this case defined quarter note.



The feeling changes, not the time. A quarter note is still 80 bpm. Look at the 3/4 vs. 6/8, maybe that makes it clearer.

Dancing a waltz you'll count | ONE two three | ONE two three | (Two measures here because waltz dance movement requires 2 bars.)
Playing All Blues you'll count | ONE two three FOUR five six |

The same applies analogously to 4/4 vs. 8/8 which is why I added the accents to make it clearer.

In 4/4 you'll count: | ONE two THREE four |
Or the second bar would count: | ONE and two and THREE and four and|
While in 8/8 you'd count: | ONE two three FOUR five six SEVEN eight |

The tempo remains the same in all 8 measures... 80 bpm (80 quarter notes per minute or the equivalent in eights)

Thanks for this. Very clear.

I am reminded that Blue Rondo A La Turk was groups 2 2 2 3 (in 9/8).

I guess there's no guarantee that every musician will make the same assumptions about what change in feel is implied by 8/8 going to 4/4. In a lead sheet, I'd look at the melody for a clue. But a big band guitar chart doesn't usually have the melody.

[Reg]

Yea pretty standard. And when the tempo changes it should be notated...

Here are a few samples from my BB book...

Ya Gotta try, Nestico
Spring can really Hang You up the Most
Spring Ahead

I generally don't count... 12345678 for a 3+3+2 accent pattern or feel... LOL.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yea pretty standard. And when the tempo changes it should be notated...

Here are a few samples from my BB book...

Ya Gotta try, Nestico
Spring can really Hang You up the Most
Spring Ahead

I generally don't count... 12345678 for a 3+3+2 accent pattern or feel... LOL.

For players who haven't seen big band charts before, Reg's Spring Can Really Hang chart is a great example.

It features changes in tempo, feel, key and time signature. Some of it is conducted. The saving grace is that the tempo is slow, so you have some time to think. OTOH, there's a lot to think about.

I think it would take a very good reader to nail that sight unseen. And, it wouldn't be a shock to get a chart of equal difficulty at a much higher tempo.

And, the pianist has all that, plus the left hand. Horn charts are often easier, since it's just one note and some articulation information.
The bassist has only one note at a time, but nobody to hide behind.

[Christian Miller]

Thanks for this. Very clear.

I am reminded that Blue Rondo A La Turk was groups 2 2 2 3 (in 9/8).

I guess there's no guarantee that every musician will make the same assumptions about what change in feel is implied by 8/8 going to 4/4. In a lead sheet, I'd look at the melody for a clue. But a big band guitar chart doesn't usually have the melody.

Tbh in practice if I saw something like this I was unfamiliar with on a big band blow, I would just listen to the rest of the rhythm section if I’m comping and play simple. A little lazy perhaps, but that’s the nice thing about being a cog in a big machine.

There’s some melody bits in Reg’s charts for example. It does come up.

Like that Buddy Rich arrangement of Norwegian Wood where you it’s very samey and if it’s very easy to lose count if your concentration slips and you don’t know the chart, and then there’s an exposed written guitar solo (the melody) at the end and the bandleader basically never cues me haha. Always fun.

but I do like having bits of melody to read now

[Reg]

Thanks Rick...yea in that Big Band, I am the piano. LOL the rhythm section is Guitar, bass and drums. I just posted the guitar parts because this is guitar forum. There is no hiding. (I usually have both parts or have notes as to which part I play etc...)

A big band never really locks in without a pro rhythm section, generally we need to play more that just what the charts have notated out... that old line, "play the notated part unless you can play something better", which is usually the latter.

That's kind of the deal.... you get one shot at performing the tunes. there is no rehearsing etc... Anther example of how important it is to have good time, rhythm etc... You can play all the right notes, but if their not rhythmically in time they're wrong anyway...

[Hugo Gainly]

You probably don't want woulda-coulda-shoulda type answers ...but here's mine. Doesn't sound as if the chart is clear.

In my experience, when the beat is 'threatened' by a change in time sig there should be accompanying text explaining how to handle it if it is not clear or if it needs underlining. Pete Moore the 'light music' composer* used to use 'a l'istesso' to mean 'same beat at the time change', so a doubling of time at the junction of 8:8 to 4:4 would result, if you had been conducted to count quavers (which I find odd).

If the chart writer just wanted a different feel at the time sig change but the same quaver beat (still odd), using one of 'the equations' - crotchet=quaver, straight quaver= swing quaver written above the bar indicating tempo or rhythm changes would clarify.

'Double time' just means play the rhythm twice as fast at a particular tempo, not the pulse is twice as fast, as I recall. It's the musical equivalent to someone flashing their headlights meaningfully at an oncoming car... did he mean, "come on", or did he mean "I'm coming on"? That seems to come up more in small band charts where your fellow musicians enjoy watching you die onstage - in a big band chart most musicians in my experience wanted 'numbers'.

I'm guessing the conductor/MD would indicate what the beat is at each point though - not that that's always a help....

* - Pete wrote the Pearl and Dean ad music and called it his pension.

[rpjazzguitar]

You probably don't want woulda-coulda-shoulda type answers ...but here's mine. Doesn't sound as if the chart is clear.

In my experience, when the beat is 'threatened' by a change in time sig there should be accompanying text explaining how to handle it if it is not clear or if it needs underlining. Pete Moore the 'light music' composer* used to use 'a l'istesso' to mean 'same beat at the time change', so a doubling of time at the junction of 8:8 to 4:4 would result, if you had been conducted to count quavers (which I find odd).

If the chart writer just wanted a different feel at the time sig change but the same quaver beat (still odd), using one of 'the equations' - crotchet=quaver, straight quaver= swing quaver written above the bar indicating tempo or rhythm changes would clarify.

'Double time' just means play the rhythm twice as fast at a particular tempo, not the pulse is twice as fast, as I recall. It's the musical equivalent to someone flashing their headlights meaningfully at an oncoming car... did he mean, "come on", or did he mean "I'm coming on"? That seems to come up more in small band charts where your fellow musicians enjoy watching you die onstage - in a big band chart most musicians in my experience wanted 'numbers'.

I'm guessing the conductor/MD would indicate what the beat is at each point though - not that that's always a help....

* - Pete wrote the Pearl and Dean ad music and called it his pension.

Seems to me that there is potential for confusion. Starts with definitions (which is apparently one place I went awry). What is the "beat" and what is the "pulse"?

In the case I wrote about, it started off in 8/8. Had the leader counted if off with 8 beats, is that the pulse, the beat or both?

When it changes to 4/4 (assuming no text about double time), is the original pulse, or beat (I don't even know how to ask the question) the original 8ths in the count off?

As I understand it, the "beat" at the beginning is eighth notes. And, after the change to 4/4, the "beat" is quarter notes. The 8th notes don't change, but the definition of the "beat of the moment" does change.

A metric modulation equation like 8th = 8th wouldn't hurt. Although, apparently, that's the default option.

[rpjazzguitar]

Tbh in practice if I saw something like this I was unfamiliar with on a big band blow, I would just listen to the rest of the rhythm section if I’m comping and play simple. A little lazy perhaps, but that’s the nice thing about being a cog in a big machine.

There’s some melody bits in Reg’s charts for example. It does come up.

Like that Buddy Rich arrangement of Norwegian Wood where you it’s very samey and if it’s very easy to lose count if your concentration slips and you don’t know the chart, and then there’s an exposed written guitar solo (the melody) at the end and the bandleader basically never cues me haha. Always fun.

but I do like having bits of melody to read now

Most of the horn band charts I've played do have the guitar playing some single notes. Sometimes double stops or written out chords in 3 or 4 notes. The single notes are often voiced with horns, but not always. But, it would be unusual in my experience to have the guitar playing the melody at the beginning of the tune. I can only think of one in the big band book that does that. More often, the guitar will be doubling a bass line if there are single notes to be played right at the top.

I might note that the pro arrangers seem to be quite careful not to write anything that's really difficult to play mechanically. That is, the charts don't require massive chops, once you've figured out what the part is supposed to sound like. Amateur charts are more likely to have really challenging passages.

[Hugo Gainly]

Oh, beat=pulse.

I use the terms exchangeably, but try to be consistent. You tap your foot to either of them. The musical subdivision of a beat is grounded in theory and there are two eights in simple time, which 8:8 is. In compound time, there are 3. But the beat is the pulse, which is the foot tap.

[rpjazzguitar]

Oh, beat=pulse.

I use the terms exchangeably, but try to be consistent. You tap your foot to either of them. The musical subdivision of a beat is grounded in theory and there are two eights in simple time, which 8:8 is. In compound time, there are 3. But the beat is the pulse, which is the foot tap.

Thanks for that clarification. So, if the chart starts in 8/8 and goes to 4/4 with no text or metric modulation equation ...

Do you tap your foot on 8ths for the 8/8 section? And, then change to half that tempo for tapping in the 4/4 section?

When the band played this tune, the leader counted it in 4/4. If I tapped my foot in quarter notes at the beginning, I would just continue to do so after the change to 4/4. Which brings me back to the original question - what is implied by the change in time signature?

[Hugo Gainly]

I'd do as you suggest. I'm left wondering what the rhythmic sense of the music was to necessitate the unusual time sig.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'd do as you suggest. I'm left wondering what the rhythmic sense of the music was to necessitate the unusual time sig.

Exactly my question too. When the band played I didn't notice anything unusual (band played a slow 4/4 to my ear), but, the first time through a new chart with virtually no time to look it over, my awareness of my surroundings is limited.

[ragman1]

4/4 to 8/8 or vice versa...

It's not the melody or chords that change necessarily, it's the rhythm, the pulse behind them. The music doesn't go into double-time unless it's written that way, only the beat doubles.

[DonEsteban]

I'd do as you suggest. I'm left wondering what the rhythmic sense of the music was to necessitate the unusual time sig.

If you want to establish this rhythmic figure - two dotted quarters and a normal quarter (arrow) - as the underlying basic pattern/feel, 8/8 is a good choice.

Can be achieved in other ways, but it is a way. In detail, we would need the sheet from rpjazzguitar to understand why exactly the arranger made this choice in this particular case.

[bako]

Personally I have never encountered an 8/8 time signature. I write and play a fair amount of music that has meter changes. The only mathematical difference is that one beat is defined as 8 in a measure. On the surface, this notational choice feels like it is aimed at the rhythm section to respond to the 8th note pulse as opposed to the quarter note. That is more commonly expressed as double time feel. The melody may or may not change at all.

The 3 3 2 rhythm figure is highly common and appears all the time in 4/4 as well as 2/4 and so I think the writer's motivation lies elsewhere.

Equivalency cues are very helpful to clarify intention, for instant going
from 6/8 to 4/4, does a quarter note equal a dotted quarter note or a
quarter note?

[ragman1]

1. I just played a chart that started in 8/8. Then the time sig. changed to 4/4.

Of course, no one is asking what this chart is or who wrote it. That would be helpful. I think we ought to examine it!

Maurice Ravel wrote one, quite nice too.

https://tinyurl.com/yhfpstk3

Technically each bar, since it contains the equivalent of eight eighth notes, could have been written in 4/4 but think of the unnecessary complexity. Writing it in 8/8 makes it far clearer to those who have to play or conduct it.

But for a jazz band score... I doubt it but I may be wrong. Maybe a drummer wrote it!

[rpjazzguitar]

The arranger did a lot of work for Buddy Rich, among others. Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the chart and I don't recall the name of the tune. I'll get it next month.

[BWV]

The denominator in a time signature is the division of a whole note, so you can also have time signatures like 5/6 (five quarter note triplets) or 11/17 or whatever.

4/4 to 8/8 with no other indications seems like a whole lotta nothing, maybe it was an indication in a jazz setting to avoid accenting 2 and 4?