Best reference for understanding chord theory?

[j4zz]

Do you have something (online link or book or whatever) that you consider to be a really good reference for chord theory?

I know the basics and can construct easy stuff like a dominant7b9 , m7b5, and sus, aug chords etc etc, but I am interested in theory and how chords relate and substitute.

One example, I was playing a tune that called for a C7b9 and noticed how this fingering looks like a diminished chord on the 3rd or 5th with the root added.

In another song, they seemed to use a B dimished chord to sub for a G7 chord, or in another, used the augmented form of the 5th in the turnaround (nice blues/jazz sound)

Just examples of the stuff I want to read about.

[Christian Miller]

Do you have something (online link or book or whatever) that you consider to be a really good reference for chord theory?

I know the basics and can construct easy stuff like a dominant7b9 , m7b5, and sus, aug chords etc etc, but I am interested in theory and how chords relate and substitute.

One example, I was playing a tune that called for a C7b9 and noticed how this fingering looks like a diminished chord on the 3rd or 5th with the root added.

In another song, they seemed to use a B dimished chord to sub for a G7 chord, or in another, used the augmented form of the 5th in the turnaround (nice blues/jazz sound)

Just examples of the stuff I want to read about.

Nice one, well noticed. Keep your eye out for stuff like this.

TBH, I own a bunch of books but mostly learned by noticing things, and bits and pieces here and there - I think I'm a practical learner. That said, I remember classical harmony being incredibly helpful.

- Jazz books tend to discuss harmony as in what you can play over chord x, or a II-V-I, or what colours you an use to enrich a chord (chord/scale theory).
- Classical OTOH books get more into the science of how harmonies move (and in the end counterpoint is king)

So the first talks about what you can put on a pre-existing chord, and the second talks about how functional harmony (which standards use) works and how to come up with progressions in that world (of which II-V-I's are just one example)*.

Both are useful to know for sub theory, but I do think a lot of jazz theory tends to talk about the first thing, which is not a helpful frame for all functional substitute chords.

But I'm sure someone here can recommend a book on jazz subs. Weirdly I can't think of one right now.

* My brain melted when I realised II-V-I is merely one realisation of a centuries old countrapuntal cadence with one bass line. Barry Harris talked all the time about how V(sus), IV6 and IIm7 were equivalent, but it never quite twigged that this goes back to Palestrina and stuff like that until I started studying classical counterpoint properly. So it's funny what comes up. Barry would have seen all of this stuff in Bach etc. He did not miss a trick.

[j4zz]

I can't tell you about specific books or online sites because I don't use them but I can tell you one very useful thing right off.

Because a chord looks like something you recognise doesn't mean it is that thing.

For instance, in your example above, the diagram shows a C7 bar chord with a b9 note added up at the top, right? So your brain looks at it and says 'Hey, that's a diminished chord!'.

This is what most people do, almost everybody, and then comes the head scratching because they're not thinking of a 7b9 any more, they're thinking of everything they know about diminished chords.

Take something else. Here's a chord or, rather, a shape:

Attachment 92746

'Ah!' you'll say, 'an A minor!'. But actually it depends.

Play it with an open A bass, it is an A minor. Play it with a C bass, it's a C6. Play it with an F bass, it's an FM7. Play it with an F# bass, it's an F#m7b5.

Attachment 92747Attachment 92748Attachment 92749Attachment 92750

So you can't just assume because it looks like an A minor that it is. It depends.



The question there is: are they actually substituting a Bo for a G7 chord? Or are they using something that looks like a diminished chord to play a type of G7 chord? Was it this?

Attachment 92751

That could be a G7b9 without the G bass.

So the bottom line is: CONTEXT.

Always find out what the chord is supposed to be in the context of everything around it. Never assume that because it looks like something familiar that it is that thing. And that, in turn, will inform you as to what to play over it and how to use it.

Yes, well I actually said the C7b9 fingering looked like a dimished chord, not that it was. You seem to have started out on this incorrect interpretation of what I said.

Also, Bdim subbing for the G7 was actually written that way in the lead sheet.

[j4zz]

Nice one, well noticed. Keep your eye out for stuff like this.

TBH, I own a bunch of books but mostly learned by noticing things, and bits and pieces here and there - I think I'm a practical learner. That said, I remember classical harmony being incredibly helpful.

- Jazz books tend to discuss harmony as in what you can play over chord x, or a II-V-I, or what colours you an use to enrich a chord (chord/scale theory).
- Classical OTOH books get more into the science of how harmonies move (and in the end counterpoint is king)

So the first talks about what you can put on a pre-existing chord, and the second talks about how functional harmony (which standards use) works and how to come up with progressions in that world (of which II-V-I's are just one example)*.

Both are useful to know for sub theory, but I do think a lot of jazz theory tends to talk about the first thing, which is not a helpful frame for all functional substitute chords.

But I'm sure someone here can recommend a book on jazz subs. Weirdly I can't think of one right now.

* My brain melted when I realised II-V-I is merely one realisation of a centuries old countrapuntal cadence with one bass line. Barry Harris talked all the time about how V(sus), IV6 and IIm7 were equivalent, but it never quite twigged that this goes back to Palestrina and stuff like that until I started studying classical counterpoint properly. So it's funny what comes up. Barry would have seen all of this stuff in Bach etc. He did not miss a trick.

Thanks Christian. Yep I have noticed stuff in classical that is used in jazz and other music. Makes sense as it is all based on the same musical principles.

[Christian Miller]

I can't tell you about specific books or online sites because I don't use them but I can tell you one very useful thing right off.

Because a chord looks like something you recognise doesn't mean it is that thing.

For instance, in your example above, the diagram shows a C7 bar chord with a b9 note added up at the top, right? So your brain looks at it and says 'Hey, that's a diminished chord!'.

This is what most people do, almost everybody, and then comes the head scratching because they're not thinking of a 7b9 any more, they're thinking of everything they know about diminished chords.

Take something else. Here's a chord or, rather, a shape:

Attachment 92746

'Ah!' you'll say, 'an A minor!'. But actually it depends.

Play it with an open A bass, it is an A minor. Play it with a C bass, it's a C6. Play it with an F bass, it's an FM7. Play it with an F# bass, it's an F#m7b5.

Attachment 92747Attachment 92748Attachment 92749Attachment 92750

So you can't just assume because it looks like an A minor that it is. It depends.



The question there is: are they actually substituting a Bo for a G7 chord? Or are they using something that looks like a diminished chord to play a type of G7 chord? Was it this?

Attachment 92751

That could be a G7b9 without the G bass.

So the bottom line is: CONTEXT.

Always find out what the chord is supposed to be in the context of everything around it. Never assume that because it looks like something familiar that it is that thing. And that, in turn, will inform you as to what to play over it and how to use it.

That's a good distinction to make.

Well it does mean that an Am triad is part of all those chords. So that's a useful thing to know.

Missing notes out means information is lost. So yeah, you can reduce a Fmaj7 to an Am, or a G7b9 to a Bo7, but you can't necessarily reconstruct it the other way round, unless you know, as you say, the context.

That's where functional harmony comes in; it teaches you the context and grammar of chords in these traditional environments like standards.

Again, I learned that a leading tone diminished seventh- that is one that's a semitone below the target chord - is functionally equivalent to a dominant 7b9 from a classical textbook, not a jazz one. I was probably looking at the wrong books, but none of the jazz books I saw told me this. Probably if you go to Berklee its on the harmony 101 syllabus, but I have come across very capable (better than me) trained jazz players to whom this is news.

(Come to think of it maybe one of the Berklee books would be a good shout.)

And while I'd take playing over theory any day, I don't think it's academic to know you can treat

C C#o7 Dm7 G7 as
C A7 Dm7 G7
and vice versa

It's a useful thing, right?

[pingu]

also maybe ....
try thinking of it as
Im to V7(5th mode of harmonic min)

so
Am to E7b9b13

PS
Hi Rag ,
some feedback
I too find your style of talking abrasive
you sometimes come across as
trying to diminish the other person

but i now understand it’s just your style

[Marinero]

Hi, J,
I think most people make this stuff more complicated than what it needs to be. If you know the intervals of chords(M7,m7,diminished, augmented, etc) and understand inversions, you only need a command of your fretboard for playing these chords in various positions for varied tonalities. The problem, for most, is that they don't know their fingerboard and want to memorize chords which is the long way around the pond. Incorporate into your practice playing chords on all strings in all positions using inversions as you reach the high "E" string as a "root". Also, be creative. I use many "chords" that really don't have a logical name but I like the sound. That's what you're supposed to do in practice . . . not noodling or as we called it in Chicago . . . doodling.
Marinero

[kris]

WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?

I know, but that's not the point. Bossa players play the Am6:

5x455x

Then they go to this chord:

4c345x

That's what confuses people because they think it's not an Abo because it has the E on the 2nd string, which is also the melody note. They don't know what it is... it's in the post.

It is similar in 'How Insensitive' ... the composer decided that the second chord was a dim7 chord ... it was always a dim chord for me ...
I am speaking really quietly.
I don't see the need to complicate the situation, it's better to focus on the feel and atmosphere in the songs rather than seek support from the theory.

[Tom Karol]

This may help; I believe it was written by someone who teaches at Berklee - a very simple introduction to how chords are constructed:

CHORD CONSTRUCTION

While the theory here begins from the beginning, there are many insights which may be useful to even fairly advanced players. Subsequent theory lessons will build upon the theoretical material so even those impatient to learn about complicated chords or reharmonization are advised to not skip this material.

The only prerequisite is that you know the names of the notes on your instrument, i.e., you should be able to find a C, C# (Db), D,

The keyboard is the easiest instrument to visualize harmony and other music theory on. I recommend that even guitar players get a basic keyboard to help in understanding theory (nowadays you can buy simple ones for next to nothing). It's very rare for a jazz musician, even a drummer, to not have some very basic keyboard skills.

The most important first step is to understand major scales. These are the ones we learn to sing as children: Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do. These form the basis of western music.

C major is the easiest scale to learn since the names of its notes are just letters in the alphabet and there are no sharps or flats. On the keyboard these are just the white notes.

C major scale is: C D E F G A B C

It is frequently convenient to talk about the notes in a major scale by number. Thus in a C major scale: 1=C, 2=D, 3=E, 4=F, 5=G, 6=A, 7=B. In some instances, which we shall not go into just yet, we can keep counting, even though the notes start to repeat themselves and say 8=C, 9=D, 10=E,11= F, 12=G, 13=A. There is no need to ever count beyond 13.

All notes can have several names. For example, C# and Db are the same physical notes. Our choice of which one to use is based on the context. Some more tricky examples are that B and Cb are the same note. Even trickier examples are ones like, G and F## (Fx) are same, as are F and Gbb. While this may seem to be overly complicating things, we shall see later that it actually makes things easier.

I'm assuming that the basic sound of a major scale is already in your ears. Make sure you can sing a major scale up and down. You can practice playing a major scale on your instrument and then listen to it and sing it back.

With this small amount of information, we'll learn how to construct even the most complicated chords. By knowing our major scales, we can construct all these chords. We explain what notes make up the chord and how the chord is usually named in a sheet of music. If you can be at a keyboard, it's a good idea to play these chords and listen to them so you can begin to get the sounds clearly in your ear.

When we name chords, we always begin with the root. Thus the root of a C chord is C. The root of a Db7 chord is Db. The root of an Eb7(#11) chord is Eb. We shall see that if we know the major scale beginning on the root of a chord, that we can construct even the most complex chords fairly easily.

Three note chords (triads)

The major chord is formed from the 1, 3, 5 notes of a major scale. C major chord has notes C, E, and G and is written as C.

A minor chord is just a major chord with a b3, so its notes are 1, b3 and 5. C minor has notes C, Eb, and G and is written as Cmi, or Cm, or sometimes C- .

A diminished chord is just a major chord with b3 and b5, so its notes are 1, b3, b5. C diminished has notes Eb and Gb and is written as C dim or Co.

An augmented chord is just a major chord with a #5, so its notes are 1, 3, and #5.
C augmented has notes C, E, and G# and is written as C aug or C+.

A suspended (sus) chord is a major chord with the 3 replaced with the 4th note of the major scale, so its notes are 1, 4, and 5. C sus has notes C, F, and G and is written C sus.

Four note chords

A major sixth chord is just a major chord with the 6th note of the major scale added to it, so its notes are 1, 3, 5, and 6. C major 6 has notes C, E, G & A and is written C6.

A major seventh chord is just a major chord with the 7th note of the major scale added to it, so its notes are 1, 3, 5, and 7. C major 7 has notes C, E, G, and B and is written Cmaj7 or Cma7 or CM7 or C?7.

A (dominant) seventh chord is just a major chord with the b7 note of a major scale added to it, so its notes are 1, 3, 5, and b7. C seventh chord has notes C, E, G, and Bb and is written C7.

A minor sixth chord is just a minor chord with the 6th note of the major scale added to it, so it's notes are 1, b3, 5 and 6. C minor sixth has notes C, Eb, G and A and is written Cmi6 or Cm6 or sometimes C-6.

A minor major seventh chord is just a minor chord with the 7th note of the major scale added to it, so it's notes are 1, b3, 5 and 7. C minor major seventh has notes C, Eb, G and B and is spelled Cmi(maj7) or Cm(ma7) or CmM7 or sometimes C-(natural)7.

A minor seventh chord is just a minor chord with the b7th note of the major scale added to it, so its notes are 1, b3, 5, and b7. C minor seventh has notes C, Eb, G, and Bb and is spelled Cmi7 or Cm7 or sometimes C-7.

A minor seventh flat 5 chord is a minor seventh chord with a b5, so it's notes are 1, b3, b5, and b7. C minor seventh flat five has notes C, Eb, Gb, and Bb and is spelled Cmi7b5 or Cm7b5.

A diminished seventh chord is a little tricky. It is a diminished chord with a bb7 so its notes are 1, b3, b5 and bb7. A bb7 is the same as 6 of the major scale so I prefer to think of it as 1, b3, b5 and 6. C diminished seventh chord has notes C, Eb, Gb, Bbb (A) and is spelled C dim7 or Co7.

There are several further variations on the dominant seventh chord; these are the seventh sus4, seventh flat 5 and augmented (seventh #5).

A seventh sus 4 chord is a seventh chord with a 4 instead of a 3, so its notes are 1, 4, 5, b7.

A seventh flat 5 chord is just a seventh chord with a b5, so its notes are 1 ,3, b5, and b7. A C seventh flat five chord has notes C, E, Gb, Bb and is spelled C7b5.

An augmented seventh chord is a seventh chord with a #5, so its notes are 1,3,#5, and b7. A C augmented seventh chord has notes C, E, G# and Bb and is spelled
C aug 7 or C+7.

Tensions

It is possible to add additional notes to these chords. These notes are named as if they are in the octave above the first seven notes of the major scale. These additional notes are 9, 11, and 13 as well as the modifications of these numbers, as b9, #9, #11 and b13.
For a chord with root, C, b9=Db, 9=D, #9=D#, 11=F, #11=F#, b13=Ab and 13=A.
So a C7b9#1113 chord has a C7 (C, E, G, Bb) plus Db, F# and A.

Learning this material

The first thing to do is to learn the notes in all of the major scales.
C major - C D E F G A B C
G major - G A B C D E F# G
D major - D E F# G A B C# D
A major - A B C# D E F# G# A
E major - E F# G# A B C# D# E
B major - B C# D# E F# G# A# B
F# major - F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#
C# major - C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#
F major - F G A Bb C D E F
Bb major - Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
Eb major - Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
Ab major - Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
Db major - Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db
Gb major - Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb
Cb major - Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb

Write them all out on paper from memory and say them in your head until you know them pretty well. Practice knowing the notes of each scale by number. For example, in the above order, what is the 2nd note of each scale? The 3rd Note? … the 7th note? 9th note? 11th note? 13th note?

As you learn each major scale, practice figuring out all the chords with root that note, i.e. when you learn the D major scale, spell D , Dmin, Ddim, Daug, Dsus, Dma7, D7, Dmi(maj7), Dmi7, Dim7 b5, D7b5, D7#5, D7sus4.

[Reg]

Nice Post Tom...

Take the basic scales and construct chords on each scale degree.

An old school approach was to use the three minors, Nat, Harmonic and Melodic. build all 7 chords from each scale.

You'll end up with 90% of all the chords you'll ever see or play.

Throw in chords from Symmetrical scales... Dim., Aug., Whole tone, Pentatonic, Blues and Bebop.

That's what you need as the starting point.

I know I've posted them years ago.... if your interested, I'll repost.

[ragman1]

I am speaking really quietly.

What? Louder!

I've explained why, because the shapes in Corcovado are often not played by bossa players as a simple Abo, the shape has an E in it and it confuses people.

I agree, many other tunes have i to a diminished chord but it's not always the same. 'How Insensitive' (according to my chart) says Dm9 - C#o. You wouldn't play that in the same way because the E at the top of the Dm9 carries on to the E at the top of the C#o.

x5355x - x4535x

So the problem doesn't arise in that instance.

In O Grande Amor (according to 2 charts I have) the first chord is an Am followed either by a Abo or an E7b9 (played 4243x). In that case the melody is an E so with the Abo it might be applicable.

My Bossa Nova site says it is played like that... BUT... they call the chord a G13/Ab, You see the point. It leads to confusion.

[kris]

Do you have something (online link or book or whatever) that you consider to be a really good reference for chord theory?

I know the basics and can construct easy stuff like a dominant7b9 , m7b5, and sus, aug chords etc etc, but I am interested in theory and how chords relate and substitute.

One example, I was playing a tune that called for a C7b9 and noticed how this fingering looks like a diminished chord on the 3rd or 5th with the root added.

In another song, they seemed to use a B dimished chord to sub for a G7 chord, or in another, used the augmented form of the 5th in the turnaround (nice blues/jazz sound)

Just examples of the stuff I want to read about.

[rpjazzguitar]

To come back to the issue of a book that covers this material.

I like Jazz Theory by Mark Levine.

I've heard criticisms, but I think it's excellent.

The examples are written for keyboard - being able to read a bit on kb would help, but there's plenty in there for a guitarist. Better if you can read standard notation on guitar, but worthwhile even without it.

[rpjazzguitar]

Leave that dm9 and play dm7 with A on top ... in c # dim you have A on top ... it's all the same trick.

4x345x is often written as an Abdim7(b13) where the function is basically Abdim7.

The E note is contained in the Ab WHdim scale.

As an aside, you sometimes see 4x3453 called Abdim(maj7). Nice sound and easy to play with a barre. And, the G is also contained in the Ab WHdim scale.

I've seen these names mostly in Brazilian music.

[Christian Miller]

I see it as dim7 with a added note. In many standards like tea for two, basin street blues and so on that note usually resolves, but not always. Usually it’s a diatonic upper neighbour, so in this context nothing to do with the diminished scale originally. This is also where the chords come from in the Jobim examples and this comes from classical harmony. Insensatez is drawn from Chopin as I recall.

For this reason, the diminished scale does tend to sound shit to me on Corcovado and Insenzatez, I prefer a more inside, classical sound for those tunes, but I do like the quirkiness of the dim scale a lot in more swing tunes that use the chord.

A harmonic minor is a good inside choice for 4 x 3 4 5 x in Corcovado for example. Not really a big deal, it’s just an E7b9 type thing with the E on top instead of in the bass, so it’s obvious really I guess now I think about it. I can probably find a few of those in Bach if I go looking. Anyway…

but many people also see it as a G13b9 with the b9 in the bass. Gypsy jazzers write it that way which confused the bejesus out of me until I twigged.

i also think G13/Ab would make sense to me in a chart. To be honest I’d probably prefer that to G13b9 (no bass specified) which is what you some times see in GJ charts.

Context eh. Aren’t chord symbols silly loLz

[KingKong]

Best way to understand chord theory?

Sack off most of the advice here and buy a piano or cheap casio keyboard. Play the chords on that. It will become obvious how they fit together, why one chord can sub for another etc etc. Trust me on this one!

[Christian Miller]

Best way to understand chord theory?

Sack off most of the advice here and buy a piano or cheap casio keyboard. Play the chords on that. It will become obvious how they fit together, why one chord can sub for another etc etc. Trust me on this one!

I can’t believe I didn’t think to say that. Yes x1000

playing keys is really helpful

[rpjazzguitar]

How Insensitive starts a descending bass line. Two bars of D, two of C#, two of Cm6 and two of G7/B.

There are other ways to play it, but this is a common one.

Seems to me that naming each of the chords from the root is worthwhile because it tells the bassist what to play. It can be done with slash chords, but that can be confusing. No great way to avoid it in this tune for the G7/B.

So, I get the second chord as C#dim7, often played with the b13 on top.

[tbeltrans]

This may or may not be helpful to the OP:

"A Chord-Melody Methodology For Guitar" by Harold Combess.

https://tinyurl.com/yc2h8y9x

This little book deals extensively with all the ways you can name a given chord configuration on the guitar. It isn't a book about chord theory, but the presentation uses the chord naming idea being discussed in this thread extensively. I don't know that I would recommend it to study chord melody. Robert Conti's materials (in my opinion) have been good for me.

Tony

[j4zz]

also maybe ....
try thinking of it as
Im to V7(5th mode of harmonic min)

so
Am to E7b9b13

PS
Hi Rag ,
some feedback
I too find your style of talking abrasive
you sometimes come across as
trying to diminish the other person

but i now understand it’s just your style

I was warned about him via a PM soon after I joined this forum. Foolishly I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Life is too short, as they say... better off using the ignore facility provided for that purpose.

[pingu]

I've just written that in the usual way. Is it also irritating to you? Be honest, tell me.

yes i did tell you ....

“I too find your style of talking abrasive
you sometimes come across as
trying to diminish the other person”

I don’t believe there is any malice
in you , i do believe you’re trying to help the corespondent

it’s just you’re abrasive style ....

[pingu]

Absolutely, that's been covered. Christian brought it up and it's my example #5.

your example #5

“5. As you suggested, treat it like the 7th degree of C harm m...”

did you perhaps mean to write 7th degree of A harm m ?

bit confused ....

[ragman1]

your example #5

“5. As you suggested, treat it like the 7th degree of C harm m...”

did you perhaps mean to write 7th degree of A harm m ?

bit confused ....

The reason you can play A harmonic minor over the Abo is because the Abo is the 7th degree chord of A harmonic minor. Which I think you know.

But Abo has the same notes as Bo, Do and Fo and they, in turn, are the 7th degree chords of C, Eb and F#/Gb harmonic minor.

So you can play any of those harmonic minors over any of those dim chords.

That's why I said we can use C harmonic minor (or Eb and Gb harmonic minor) over the Abo. All those were demonstrated in the sound clip in that big post I put up, just to prove it works :-)

Has that answered it?

[kris]

i can't see my recent posts-have disappeared.

[Christian Miller]

How Insensitive starts a descending bass line. Two bars of D, two of C#, two of Cm6 and two of G7/B.

There are other ways to play it, but this is a common one.

Seems to me that naming each of the chords from the root is worthwhile because it tells the bassist what to play. It can be done with slash chords, but that can be confusing. No great way to avoid it in this tune for the G7/B.

So, I get the second chord as C#dim7, often played with the b13 on top.

well unless we break out the figured bass notation I can’t see how else you’d do it tbh

i suppose you could write Bm7b5 but it’s not the same thing exactly

Anyway a pianist pointed out to me that it’s more confusing for them because the left hand typically plays the thing right of the slash and the right hand plays the thing left of the slash AAAARGGH. So no complaining lol.

In fact Jobim’s harmony makes sense from the perspective of counterpoint, in common with Chopin, Bach (not to mention the rest of the classical tradition) and interestingly, Django, he had a tendency to write very specific and beautiful bass lines. In fact go back to the sheet music and a lot of standards started off like this too, compositional details that real book simplifies or ignores.

in the case of insensatez it’s an example of a long line of classic ‘lamento’ chromatic basses which go back to the 17th century (Dido’s lament, Bach’s crucifixus etc) and are also common in jazz and popular song (blues skies, no moon at all, my funny valentine, in walked bud, chim chim cheree etc)

There’s a million ways to put chords on this bass and Jobim example borrows a more chromatic/romantic era approach from Chopin where we have also have a parallel line in minor thirds against the bass. F-E-Eb-D

The melody orbits around 5 and then the 4 of the key (A and G) and that is also very typical melodic framework for this bass and you can find loads of examples of melodies that do this, no moon at all, chim chim cheree and blue skies being obvious examples. You can find this stuff in partimento exercises from the mid 1700s

So this type of writing is quite different to the sort of functional tonic/subdominant/dominant stuff. It comes from counterpoint. I hear a lot of Choro and earlier Brazilian harmony like that too. The bass is really important.

In bop bass lines are improvised so we tend to move towards thinking of the chords in root position all the time so the ii V I functional thing becomes massive. It’s a cheat really, allows you to get sounding good on real book charts quick using ii v licks, and I use it myself for students. But you don’t really learn about harmony/counterpoint that way and compositions that have proper harmony like Jobim can be confusing.

as Barry Harris said, the great songwriters didn’t write ii to V to I, none of them did. We might chop them down to that, but it’s just a simplification to aid improv.

also modern composers like Kenny Wheeler and Pat Metheny seem to hip to the bass line thing. Kenny studied classical composition. Metheny is obsessed with Brazilian music and Bach. Wayne Shorter’s a bass line guy too, I remember a Miles quote as to how he was a real composer because he wrote bass lines.