The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    I spent a little more time thinking about the second chord.

    The diminished scale sounds good in its entirety. That's what I gravitate to by ear. Ab Bb B Db D E F G. That's a G13b9#9#11

    The chord could be called 7b9. If I think mixo with an added b9 it doesn't sound as good. Or should I call it C harmonic major? (with an extra A) G A B C D E F G Ab. That's a G13b9.

    I make no claims to music theory scholarship, but it seems to me that if I write dim7b13, the bassist plays the right note and I can easily see the right scale.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I spent a little more time thinking about the second chord.

    The diminished scale sounds good in its entirety. That's what I gravitate to by ear. Ab Bb B Db D E F G. That's a G13b9#9#11

    The chord could be called 7b9. If I think mixo with an added b9 it doesn't sound as good. Or should I call it C harmonic major? (with an extra A) G A B C D E F G Ab. That's a G13b9.

    I make no claims to music theory scholarship, but it seems to me that if I write dim7b13, the bassist plays the right note and I can easily see the right scale.
    ah we were talking about different dim scales. I’m thinking A7 and you were thinking of C#o7 as a sub for G7 going to C. I think yours sounds a bit better (is more diatonic to Dm for one thing) but I don’t like either as much as straightforward Dm stuff in this context.

  4. #28

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    The discussion included both How Insensitive and Corcovado. Similar, but not identical in the first 8.

    Just for clarification,

    H.I. has the descending bass line to the G7/B.

    Dm C#o7 Cm6 G7/B.

    Corcovado, if you begin with Am6, goes to Abo7 Gm7 and then C7. The last chord does not support a continuation of the chromatic bass line.

    As an aside, the first chord melody I ever learned was Don't Blame Me. C Bb A in the bass at the beginning. I recall my teacher mentioning that having half or whole steps in the bass was a good idea for chord melody.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The discussion included both How Insensitive and Corcovado. Similar, but not identical in the first 8.

    Just for clarification,

    H.I. has the descending bass line to the G7/B.

    Dm C#o7 Cm6 G7/B.

    Corcovado, if you begin with Am6, goes to Abo7 Gm7 and then C7. The last chord does not support a continuation of the chromatic bass line.
    i was taking about insensatez but I’m still not quite sure which tune you were talking about in your post re the G7b9 dim scale.

    As an aside, the first chord melody I ever learned was Don't Blame Me. C Bb A in the bass at the beginning. I recall my teacher mentioning that having half or whole steps in the bass was a good idea for chord melody.
    Its obviously just a good idea for basses in general. Most strong basses have a balanced combination of steps and leaps just like a good melody. Most of the time we don’t get a say, in bands and so on.

    A good bass player of course is able to play this through a chart with a bunch of root position chords; the process is a bit different to the practice of composing a bass line like Jobim or Bach, but the results are the same, whether in rock/pop or jazz….

    As guitarists we might be happy beating away on that power chord or those jazz grips and be none the wiser but chord melody is where we have to take notice of course….

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The reason you can play A harmonic minor over the Abo is because the Abo is the 7th degree chord of A harmonic minor. Which I think you know.

    But Abo has the same notes as Bo, Do and Fo and they, in turn, are the 7th degree chords of C, Eb and F#/Gb harmonic minor.

    So you can play any of those harmonic minors over any of those dim chords.

    That's why I said we can use C harmonic minor (or Eb and Gb harmonic minor) over the Abo. All those were demonstrated in the sound clip in that big post I put up, just to prove it works :-)

    Has that answered it?
    yes thanks i now understand you

    although i don’t like those sounds much
    over the Abdim
    i like 5th mode A Harm minor
    ie E7b9b13
    (we used to call it E7 gypsy
    but I don’t know if that’s allowed now)

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    yes thanks i now understand you

    although i don’t like those sounds much
    over the Abdim
    i like 5th mode A Harm minor
    ie E7b9b13
    (we used to call it E7 gypsy
    but I don’t know if that’s allowed now)
    you could call it E problematic

    because it’s always used to evoke ‘the east’ haha

    Raise the D to a D# and you can have E doubly problematic

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    yes thanks i now understand you

    although i don’t like those sounds much
    over the Abdim
    i like 5th mode A Harm minor
    ie E7b9b13
    (we used to call it E7 gypsy
    but I don’t know if that’s allowed now)
    E7b9b13 is E G# B D F C. It's A harm min without the A.

    If you include the A - what would you call it? E11b9b13? E7b9b13add11? Never seen either one. Can't call it a sus, because it has the 3rd. Anyway, if you do that, the scale is an E triad plus a Dm7. Or, an E7 plus an F triad.

    It can be played more or less as 056565. You can hear how dissonant the A note sounds on top of the chord.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    yes thanks i now understand you

    although i don’t like those sounds much
    over the Abdim
    i like 5th mode A Harm minor
    ie E7b9b13
    (we used to call it E7 gypsy
    but I don’t know if that’s allowed now)
    Pingu, you're still alive! Goody.

    Yes, probably the Ab dim scale is the 'perfect' one because it's got all the right notes, or one can treat the Abo as the leading tone chord of Am and play A harmonic minor over it. Which means, if the first chord is an Am6, swapping from melodic to harmonic.

    Depends on taste and ear, I suppose.

    Re. the Gypsy scale, according to Wiki there are three variations. Only one of them is a mode of harmonic minor, the other two are different.

    Gypsy scale - Wikipedia

  10. #34

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    By the way, the same chords are in this new VJ tune 'O Grande Amor', Am - Abo - Gm - C7. It'll be interesting to see what people do with it!

  11. #35

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    I already wrote about it - only my entries have disappeared.

  12. #36

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    Write about it again. I don't know where they've gone.

  13. #37

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    The theory of harmony or chord theory...

    So you need to understand Vanilla Functional Theory..

    Grout, Riemann, Rameau,
    Piston, Schoenberg and Persichetti

    Leon Dallin put out a book on "Techniques of Twentieth Century Composition", which is a guide to modern day practice and understandings of traditional music theory.

    But basically Jazz chord theory is about...... expanding what is implied by single chords. And also expanding the musical organization of which is used to expand those single chords.

    Traditional harmony uses Musical Organization which is based of Guidelines, rules of how notes react to other notes and how much power or weight notes have in musical context.

    Traditional harmony uses Ionian or Major as the reference for creating those Guidelines. Jazz Chordal Theory.... expands on those Guide Lines. Changes the rules, or the basic reference.

    An easy approach for beginning to understand jazz practice is to start with Modern Modal Concepts.

    Jazz Theory... by Stuart Smith is a free book on Line... it's a good start
    https://www.saxonline.it/wordpress/w...JazzTheory.pdf


    The trial and error approach or looking at voicings and having fun will work to help develop a collection of examples or possible examples to use... that's what most do. Nothing wrong etc... But it takes a lifetime.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Write about it again. I don't know where they've gone.
    I think some of your posts have also disappeared ...

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    My brain melted when I realised II-V-I is merely one realisation of a centuries old countrapuntal cadence with one bass line. Barry Harris talked all the time about how V(sus), IV6 and IIm7 were equivalent, but it never quite twigged that this goes back to Palestrina and stuff like that until I started studying classical counterpoint properly. So it's funny what comes up. Barry would have seen all of this stuff in Bach etc. He did not miss a trick.
    Hi Christian, I'm not trying to be funny or controversial or whatever, and it's off-topic, but did Barry read music? I only say this because I've never seen him refer to any notation in any of the videos I've seen. He will take about an hour to get a bunch of horn players play a riff, which had it been written down, they could have played in about 15 seconds. Or ask questions like, 'how many keys is Am in?', when he simply wanted to explain that Am must be treated differently depending on whether its the ii, iii or vi.

    A friend raised this and we've been talking about it so I would be delighted if you could settle it for us.

  16. #40

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    Yes, do tell.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishmuso
    He will take about an hour to get a bunch of horn players play a riff, which had it been written down, they could have played in about 15 seconds. Or ask questions like, 'how many keys is Am in?', when he simply wanted to explain that Am must be treated differently depending on whether its the ii, iii or vi.
    sheet music and roman numbers, huh? if you could learn jazz that way, everybody would be charlie parker.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    sheet music and roman numbers, huh? if you could learn jazz that way, everybody would be charlie parker.
    Excellent comment. Very good indeed. Quite insightful and I appreciate the humour. However, I wasn't asking about how to 'learn jazz'. I was simply asking Christian a question about Barry Harris.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishmuso
    Hi Christian, I'm not trying to be funny or controversial or whatever, and it's off-topic, but did Barry read music? I only say this because I've never seen him refer to any notation in any of the videos I've seen. He will take about an hour to get a bunch of horn players play a riff, which had it been written down, they could have played in about 15 seconds. Or ask questions like, 'how many keys is Am in?', when he simply wanted to explain that Am must be treated differently depending on whether its the ii, iii or vi.

    A friend raised this and we've been talking about it so I would be delighted if you could settle it for us.
    I’ve always assumed he could read, but I don’t know for sure. In this interview he talks about having piano lessons when young, then playing the clarinet part in stock arrangements at school, then playing the Chopin ‘Revolutionary Etude’ at a concert, so I would think it was likely he could read music.

    https://jazzday.com/media/AC0808_Har...Transcript.pdf

    I’m no expert on Barry, but maybe he was keen on getting people to learn things by ear, rather than by reading dots off a page?

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    The trial and error approach or looking at voicings and having fun will work to help develop a collection of examples or possible examples to use... that's what most do. Nothing wrong etc... But it takes a lifetime.
    yes Reg
    after learning the basics of the
    major scale and how the secondary dominants work with that structure and then a teacher adding a bit of spice on V7 chords (the usual
    altered, 5th mode Harmonic minor
    HW dim etc etc)
    ———————-
    I’ve spent most of my time following my nose through the standard tunes
    and what other people have played on them
    not transcription as such , just stealing ideas here and there
    and still playing the blues of course !

    Its unmethodical (but fun) and it’s worked great for me so far

    I think that working out the player you want to be , is the absolute prime mover in the learning process

    so
    If you want to play like Mclaughlin you’re going to learn in a different direction
    than someone who wanted to play like Barney

    just chewing the fat

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    yes Reg
    after learning the basics of the
    major scale and how the secondary dominants work with that structure and then a teacher adding a bit of spice on V7 chords (the usual
    altered, 5th mode Harmonic minor
    HW dim etc etc)
    ———————-
    I’ve spent most of my time following my nose through the standard tunes
    and what other people have played on them
    not transcription as such , just stealing ideas here and there
    and still playing the blues of course !

    Its unmethodical (but fun) and it’s worked great for me so far

    I think that working out the player you want to be , is the absolute prime mover in the learning process

    so
    If you want to play like Mclaughlin you’re going to learn in a different direction
    than someone who wanted to play like Barney

    just chewing the fat
    Ha! I like this. I remember spending an entire summer with a local guitar teacher, hours a day playing through the Johnny Smith method from Mel Bay. Finally, my wife said "why don't you just play songs?". It reminded me of the story of the semi that got stuck under a bridge. All these experts were trying to figure out how to get it out without taking apart the bridge. Finally a little kid says "why not just let air out of the tires".

    When I encountered Robert Conti's lessons, he talked continuously about how you learn tunes by playing tunes. My wife was right...

    Tony

  22. #46

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    Just a general comment on theory ...

    There have been some theoretical notions that I found immediately helpful.

    Here are a few:

    1. Warren Nunes' teaching that there are two types of chords. He called them Type I and Type II and, within a Type, they're interchangeable. They correspond to tonic and dominant. So, Cmaj7 = Em7 = Gmaj7 = Am7 etc.

    2. The idea of tonal center and how to figure out what it is at any given moment. I also got that from Warren. You can get pretty far with these two concepts (#1 and #2 herein).

    3. Mark Levine's dictum that all melodic minor chords are the same chord. This is an incredibly powerful notion for comping.

    4. How to run a chord through a scale. Doing that in stacked fourths voicings, and realizing that the avoid note (in a major scale) didn't matter much, changed how I comp right away. Then, working on voicings through the melodic minor scale, with no avoid note, opened more doors than can be easily managed.

    Stuff I've heard that I couldn't figure out how to use:

    1. Borrowed chords. I get that you can borrow a chord from, say, a parallel minor. But, some borrowed chords work and some don't. I still end up having to learn them one at a time from their usage in songs. I've yet to figure out how the notion of borrowing is helpful. Since Reg pays attention to it, I know there's gotta be something useful there (because he plays great), but it hasn't revealed itself to me.

    2. I think I know how it works, but I haven't been able to integrate harmony emerging from various scales in any organized way. So, for example, harmonic minor, harmonic major, diminished etc all lead to different chordal sounds, but knowing that hasn't helped me get those sounds into my playing very much. To the extent I've been able to assimilate those sounds it's from tunes, one small bit at a time.

  23. #47

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    I’ve found chord function a useful theory for improvising. There’s two main flavours

    1) the Roman numbers stuff - see also Nashville, harmonic analysis, pretty essential for being a working musician

    2) The Reimannian functional stuff (although Reimann’s original theory is quite different to what is used today) say dividing chords into Tonic Dominant and Subdominant/Predominant chords.

    I think the trick is (as with all theory) to use it but not take it too seriously; if a chord isn’t classifiable under these systems it’s maybe better to look at it as voice leading. This is especially true in jazz where the functions are somewhat relaxed. There’s sort of 2.5 as opposed to 3 functions.

    The Tristan Chord is the example I always think of - as voice leading dead simple, as a chord function people have been arguing about it since it was written. Wagner, notably did not have to categorise it to write it. There’s a lesson in there. (fwiw I hear it as French sixth with a lower chromatic neighbour appogiatura.)

    I remember reading Schoenberg’s Harmonielehre. I probably have loads of ideas from it that I can’t remember getting from it, but the interesting thing about it is that Schoenberg himself was basically self taught. Like Barry Harris, this was his take. His book on fundamentals of composition is smashing btw.

  24. #48

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    [QUOTE=pingu;1207255]yes Reg
    after learning the basics of the
    major scale and how the secondary dominants work with that structure and then a teacher adding a bit of spice on V7 chords (the usual
    altered, 5th mode Harmonic minor
    HW dim etc etc)
    ———————-
    I’ve spent most of my time following my nose through the standard tunes
    and what other people have played on them
    not transcription as such , just stealing ideas here and there
    and still playing the blues of course !



    Yes pingu.... for most what you say is true, and I've been posting on this forum for decades... that you need to know or figure out who and what you are etc..

    But what you described in your post... is part of the problem....it's not that factual... and why most hit walls and decide that they just want to enjoy themselves etc..

    Also just in case, for the record... Altered implies the 7th mode of MM., has at least for 60 years. Scales and modes have actual names... ( I'm sure your aware)
    If you were just using altered to imply random alterations, embellishments etc... Generally most are most concerned with the 5th... anyway... my mistake, sorry.

    And I think that most really want to play jazz or in a jazz style....but end up noodling through tunes etc...having fun.

    Nothing wrong again... but the thread is called and about... Chord Theory.

    Tony, sad but true story thanks. Part of the problem is most need, 1)Technical and 2)Performance Skills.... and the application and understandings of those skills. Which is really difficult to develop through trial and error, playing tunes etc...