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I recently got very interested in understanding chord progressions as a way of learning and remembering songs. A lot of the progressions I see are pretty much standard - ii-V-I, iv-ii-V-I, I-IV-V, etc. To help with my study, I just realized I could turn on the "Roman Numeral" layer in Band in a Box and have it decipher the song progression for me. I just converted Moonglow to numerics and got a big surprise. It's like nothing I've ever seen. Could someone with theory knowledge help me to understand why some of these progressions work, especially the turnarounds of I-bVI7-IVm-I? Do these chords come from scales that I may not be aware of? Thanks in advance... JD
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06-24-2022 12:32 PM
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"Moonglow" and others like "Just Friends" begin at "the backdoor", so it's not unusual.
Letter A "Moonglow"
||: IV | bVII7 | I | II7 | ii | V7 | I | (I7) :||
Bridge cycle (typical)
|| I7 | I7 | VI7| VI7 | II7 | II7 | ii | V7 ||
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Ah yes, I seem to remember my instructor once talking about "back door" cycling. I guess it never sunk in. I guess I need to study up on it. I own the "The Jazz Theory Book" , perhaps I should take that out and go through it. Thanks... JD
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That Erroll Garner version has my favorite Garner turnaround in bars 7 and 8:
| Bb6 Bbdim7 | C-7b5 Bb6 ||
I love that one
PS. I don’t recall the back door being covered in The Jazz Theory Book...
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Originally Posted by donojazz62220
Try the turnaround (2 bars) this way:
x7778x that
x6668x led me
x5558x straight
x6668x to
x7778x you.
This way sounds right to me.
Those chords are a little tricky to name. Find the bass line and name the chords accordingly is a good way to do it. That way, the bassist reading the chord symbols is likely to play the notes you want.
Basically, you're stacking some 4ths under a high G pedal tone. To explain: x7778x is E A D --- E to A is a 4th and A to D is a 4th, hence a stack of 4ths. And, there's a G on top. You keep the G and move the others down a half step and then another.
So, each of those is a stack of 4ths, and the high G is the same throughout. Since I'd probably want a C in the bass for the first chord, I'd name it C6/9. Then Eb Ab Db G is R 4 b7 10. Eb7sus(add10)? I've never seen it and it's kind of ridiculous, but it does say it.
The Cm might be seen as a substitute for the Am7/G. That is, that chord could be Am7b5 -- which is aka Cm6. But I think that's a stretch and, to my ear, it doesn't sound good.
Back to my stacked fourth approach: x5558x might be called Am7/D. Then it's back to x6668x. This time, I like an Ab in the bass. Call it Abmaj11? That's a stretch because it's really R 5 R 4 nat7.
If I was doing a chart, I'd spell out the voicings in standard notation if I felt strongly about those specific voicings.
Alternatively, I could be convinced it's G6 Go7 Am7/G D7 G6. A lot of other variations can work too. Bb6 A7 Ab7 G is good.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-25-2022 at 01:41 PM.
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Yea the backdoor 7th chord or bVII7 is from Parallel Minor.
Key of Gmaj
I ma7 II-7 III-7 IVma7 V7 VI-7 VII-7b5
Gmaj7 A-7 B-7 Cma7 D7 E-7 F#-7b5
Becomes the parallel Minor... (Not Relative) So Nat Min. or Relative min. starting on I or what was Imaj7 or G
I-7 II-7b5 bIIIma7 IV-7 V-7 bVIma7 bVII7
G-7 A-7b5 Bbma7 C-7 D-7 Ebma7 F7
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Like I said, I found the layer button in Band in a Box and thought that learning more about song progressions would help in remembering/playing standards. I will input some of your suggestions in BIAB concerning the turnaround and see what happens. Thanks RP... JD
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Originally Posted by donojazz62220
sorry , more suggestions !
x10 12 12 12 x G
x10 11 9 11 x. Gdim
10 x 10 9 10 x. C9
x 10 9 7 8 x. G
or maybe
3 x 3 4 3 x
3 x 2 3 2 x
3 x 1 2 1 x
works for me ....
i don’t analyse it too much
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I have a soft spot for this one.
More and more these days I’m a counterpoint guy, so I see chord symbols as a (sometimes very janky) way of labelling voice leading rather than voice leading coming from chords. As a result I tend to see detailed Roman numeral analysis as less useful, because often it makes more sense when you look at each voice and what it’s doing- especially with anything involving diminished chords.
so my analysis of the tune is
A: IV IVm I II7 V7 I V7
B: I IV7 II7 V7
Dead simple, and enough for soloing (but not enough info to play the tune because you need to know the specifics.)
So - the last two bars of the A are basically a chromatic line against a pedal.
x x x x 3 3
x x x x 2 3
x x x x 1 3
x x x x 0 3
or
x x x x 3 3
x x x x 2 3
x x x x 1 3
x x x x 2 3
x x x x 3 3
expanding to three voices
x x x 4 3 3
x x x 3 2 3
x x x 2 1 3
x x x 0 0 3
and to four
x x x 5 4 3 3
x x x 2 3 2 3
x x x 1 2 1 3
x x x 0 0 0 3
so, what rintincop said (G Go7 Am7b5 G). (Notice I’m using straight G chords here)
This is the old school vanilla version of the changes, and tbh I would go with this because it’s kind of an old school vanilla song- or at least I’ve always performed it in swing dance bands and so on, maybe the odd function, rather than modern jazz groups so I’ve never felt the need to make it ‘hip’ (maybe there’s some Mehldau version in 13 that I’ve overlooked that’ll blow my mind lol.) rpjazzguitars chords represent a more modern version using the same type of idea.
the BIAB version is not that far away from this and you could think of it as a mild reharmonisation. But I’ve never played the tune like that I have to say lol, and I must have played this one on a few hundred gigs.
You have a bIIIo7 going to IIm7 or IIm7b5 and maybe back to I which is a really common situation in old fashioned jazz standards (think Errol garner, Nat Cole etc, rather than Bill Evans) They relate in my mind to the blues and the b5
that first version is probably what I’d do in a guitar trio honestly, dead simple.
in terms of what it does it’s basically a blues turnaround. Basie and stuff like that is full of this stuff. Which is to say, it’s basically a fancy way to play V (although the melody is a root here which is important.)
i would lean into the blues here. You can track every change and it’s good to practice but I’m not sure it’s right for the spirit of the tune.Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-25-2022 at 03:07 PM.
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Other tunes that start on IV IVm thing
After You’ve Gone
I can’t believe you’re in love with me
stardust
just friends
any more for any more?
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xx2433 That
xx2323 Led Me (play chord on each syllable)
xx2213 Straight
xx2213 To
xx2433 You
In case it's not obvious, that's the lyric to that part of Moonglow. I think it's the/a correct sound for the tune, although there are other options.
That chordal lick can also be used in the A section of Rhythm Changes. Can sound like an old fashioned swing band Shout Chorus.
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We're working our way to the grandma convention... LOL
Rick playing in Albany tomorrow, your welcome to sit in... Kenny McElroy on drums, might hit the gospel.
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Menilmontant
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
xx2433 (Em7) That
xx2323 (Edim) Led Me (play chord on each syllable)
xx2213 (Am7) Straight
xx2213 (Am7) To
xx5433 (G) You
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Originally Posted by donojazz62220
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Originally Posted by PMB
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Originally Posted by donojazz62220
So, as you noted, E G B D is Em7 (spelled from the root) and G B D E is G6. Of course, you don't have to spell them, or play them, from the root. The nature of the chord comes from the musical context (the harmony of the song) and often what the bassist is playing.
What might also be worth thinking about is that Cmaj9 is C E G B D.
So, if the bassist is playing a C, that same E G B D can become a variant of Cmaj. If the bassist is playing a G, it's a variant of Gmaj. If the bassist is playing an E .....
What if the bassist was playing an F? If F is the root, the notes are 5 nat7 9 #11 and 13. Not the most common thing but it is an Fmaj13#11 (no third).
The point is to support your idea that it's an excellent idea to be thinking about individual notes. If you know the notes you need and where they are on the neck, you are freed from being limited by knowledge of grips.
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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Originally Posted by donojazz62220
in tunes
(i don’t think of the individual notes
cos I’m not built that way)
but i get to a similar place by roman numeral
, functional analysis ....
eg
G6 is like Em
D7 is like F#m7b5 etc etc
its extremely usefull
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Originally Posted by pingu
I used Dirk's Autumn Leaves BIAB recommendation in Bb and noticed that it assigns numerals in relation to the "Major" key. So bars 1-4 look good as a IIm-V-I-IV but it doesn't capture the Am7b5 as a IIm7 of a Gm (I) as I've seen in many other analyses of the song. Not sure what to think of the VIIm7b5-III7-VIm other than it's part of the Bb Roman Numeral set. I'll have to keep playing with it.
But some of the jewels here on back cycling, harmonic shaping, and chord synonyms are golden nuggets for me......JD
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Originally Posted by donojazz62220
So
C6 = Am7
Cm6 = Am7b5
Also ii-V relationship at it's simplest Cm <--> F7
More specifically
Cm7 = F7sus4
Cm6 = F7
Cm(maj7) = F7#11
Very important stuff.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by donojazz62220
Cm6 is C Eb G A. That's a rootless F9. If you play the F, it isn't Cm6 any more. It's F9 (assuming that's consistent with context). But it is useful to know that everywhere there's a Cm6 there is also most of an F9 -- and that Cm6 will usually become an F9 if somebody, especially the bassist, plays an F. (I can't think of an exception, but it's possible that harmonic context could change how someone might choose to label the chord).
Same argument for Cm7 and Cminmaj7. The name of the chord is changed by the F in the bass. But, as a practical matter, I agree that these chords can often/usually be subbed for each other.
In engineering sometimes a wavy looking equal sign is used to mean "approximately equal". If I had one of those on my keyboard I'd use if for this.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-27-2022 at 04:25 PM.
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Yea... roman numerals have always worked well.... it's about time, LOL. when you add more analysis tools, Chord patterns with targets. Dominant and Dom subs arrows etc... Basically finish the analysis, it become very easy to understand whats going on musically with most tunes. And it becomes easy to verbally explain to other musicians... LOL
The 1st step is just labeling just as they are... with simple reference to the Key. You'll at least have an organized system for labeling chords with a reference to what the root or implied Root is.
Has anyone played or had a Supro Amulet ?
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