7#11

[ColMc52]

There was a B7#11 on a chart I'm learning. Initially I played it as 7x786x but it had me thinking this could be a B7b5 so I changed to 7x766x which has a 9th instead of the 3rd. Makes sense to me, R 7 9 11.

But I just saw on the forum chord dictionary page, and in others places, that same chord but with the 3rd instead of the 9th.

They're both legit chords but it seems more logical to use the 9th because it places the next note in the upper octave. #11.

[MarkInLA]

The way you first played it was B7#11, because it's only a b5 chord when the b5 is right above the root (or even becomes the root of a tritone substitution)....
It's a #11 when it's at least one or more octaves above the b5...Your second one is without a 3rd (the mode of the chord)..I think it'd be named [B7#11 no 3rd] or even a C#+7 or Db+7 (7th in the bass), believe it or not ! ..Why ? Because the B (Cb) on bottom is the 7th, the A above that is the aug 5 , the Db above it the root, the F on top the Maj 3rd... Re-voiced/fingered in close harmony: Db F A Cb (B) = Db+7, root position....Check that out !!

[ColMc52]

Thanks Mark. I should have realised the b5 was already in the 2nd oct.
That clears it up.

[bako]

If you want the 3rd and the 9th.

7 6 7 6 6 X or X 2 1 2 2 1 -----1 3 b7 9 #11

You can also omit the root.

X 6 7 6 6 X or X X 1 2 2 1 ----- 3 b7 9 #11

[Reg]

Yea... you need to know what your implying with the chord. How is the chord functioning, which would have harmonic guidelines, note choices etc... Your 1st voicing personally without context... implies... augmented.

Without having or using the 5th or13th.... your not implying what B7#11 typically implies.

Nothing wrong with voicing, but if your comping, typically your trying to imply and support the harmonic progression... melody or improv.

Also typically when your comping... you actually play Chord Patterns, not just single voicings. So if the B7#11 is actually a sub V or functioning harmonically in or from that implied harmonic Context.... you would play a series of voicings, (chord pattern), with a lead line or melodic figure on top or within the voicings, that reflect that Chord.

Commonly also using the tritone sub chord, F7alt and maybe even each V7 chords related II- chord.

Without tune or context I'm guessing... but examples could be. The lead line on top is what should be heard 1st.

B7#11
7 x 7 6 6 x
x 6 7 6 7 x
x 8 7 8 9 9
x x 7 6 4 7

to Bb-7
6 x 6 6 6 6 or maybe going to Bb7

B7#11
7 x 7 6 6 x
x 6 7 6 7 x
x 8 7 8 9 x
x 9 7 9 10 x

Bb7
x 11 12 12 11 x

if you post the tune or part... I'll post examples.

[citizenk74]

There was a B7#11 on a chart I'm learning. Initially I played it as 7x786x but it had me thinking this could be a B7b5 so I changed to 7x766x which has a 9th instead of the 3rd. Makes sense to me, R 7 9 11.

But I just saw on the forum chord dictionary page, and in others places, that same chord but with the 3rd instead of the 9th.

They're both legit chords but it seems more logical to use the 9th because it places the next note in the upper octave. #11.

[setemupjoe]

The way you first played it was B7#11, because it's only a b5 chord when the b5 is right above the root (or even becomes the root of a tritone substitution)....
It's a #11 when it's at least one or more octaves above the b5...Your second one is without a 3rd (the mode of the chord)..I think it'd be named [B7#11 no 3rd] or even a C#+7 or Db+7 (7th in the bass), believe it or not ! ..Why ? Because the B (Cb) on bottom is the 7th, the A above that is the aug 5 , the Db above it the root, the F on top the Maj 3rd... Re-voiced/fingered in close harmony: Db F A Cb (B) = Db+7, root position....Check that out !!

Theoretically when building chords the #11 is in the 2nd octave (compound intervals) but when structuring chord shapes on the guitar it makes no difference how high or low it is in the voicing. The name #11 is not dictated by how high or low it is in the voicing. #11 implies there may also be a natural 5th possible in the chord structure although guitar voicings don’t usually play both because of the limited notes we can play.
Whether #11 or b5 is written is often interchangeable. We know there’s a difference but in the majority of situations either is applicable.

[Reg]

Yea joe... chords and voicings are different subjects. And as your probable already aware... #11 and b5 technically are same note... but where you pull notes from etc... the spelling make a big difference. Just like #5 and b13.

The OP is probable a beginner to jazz comping... but I still believe it's good practice to keep references and spellings musically organized. Make sight reading, ensemble playing, gigs etc... much easier.

(although most charts don't and we get use to knowing what's implied, even when spelled wrong LOL.)

[MarkInLA]

setemupjoe
You are incorrect...A b5 is just that..The 5 flatted, directly above where the tonic may or may not sit...The "11" infers that it IS at least and octave higher than the 5th, sharpened..Otherwise it would have been given one name only: b5.. IE. Why say #11 when it's not an interval OF an 11th (or more) above the root ? Here's even another explanation: A chord may contain a nat. 5th along with the #11 above it..IE. the presence of a #11 does not cancel out the 5th's presence... [CMaj7#11] can contain both a G nat.directly above the root and an F# above that...But it can't have a 5th and a flatted 5th, G and Gb, at the same time (unless one really wants ugly).....

[setemupjoe]

setemupjoe
You are incorrect...A b5 is just that..The 5 flatted, directly above where the tonic may or may not sit...The "11" infers that it IS at least and octave higher than the 5th, sharpened..Otherwise it would have been given one name only: b5.. IE. Why say #11 when it's not an interval OF an 11th (or more) above the root ? Here's even another explanation: A chord may contain a nat. 5th along with the #11 above it..IE. the presence of a #11 does not cancel out the 5th's presence... [CMaj7#11] can contain both a G nat.directly above the root and an F# above that...But it can't have a 5th and a flatted 5th, G and Gb, at the same time (unless one really wants ugly).....

I understand your argument but you’re confusing chord structure (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13) with specific voicings that can feasibly place these notes in any order.

I can play Bb7#11 stacked Bb, E, Ab, D, F (6. 7. 6. 7. 6). In this voicing the #11 is in the octave below the 5th.

If I voice Bb9#11 with the root as the highest note, then what will you do? Ab, D, C, E, Bb (4. 5. x. 5. 5. 6)

But yes, when constructing chords from the bottom up, the 5th is in the simple octave and 11th is in the compound octave.

[Christian Miller]

The distinction between #11 and b5 is for noobs

or maybe I’ve listening to Monk again

[wolflen]

while theory may direct the correct name of chords..it fails on the creative side of the musician and music in general

is the name of the chord in a functional context..is it harmonically related to the tonal center..if there is one..

or through experimentation..a series of notes formed by voice leading created a chord that sounds "great" but yet not named via theory

and then the debate of what to solo over such a chord..if it is one..

In one of Howard Roberts chord books a group of chord grids demonstrates a voice leading pattern..Roberts called then sound shapes and stressed that naming them is less
important than their sound function

and for the "ultimate chord fans"..

I brought the same HR book to one of my lessons with Ted Greene..

Ted looked at the names of chords in a progression..and crossed out one chords name and inserted his take on the chord name..

ahhh I died and went to harmonic heaven..Roberts vs Greene --the unknown chord lives !!

[ragman1]

There was a B7#11 on a chart I'm learning.

Show us the chart so we can put it in context.

[whiskey02]

I'll just leave this here:
Lydian Dominant Strategies - TrueFire Blog - Guitar Lessons

[Christian Miller]

So 7#11 is really common. It most often crops up on degrees II, IV, bVII7 and bVI7. You’ll see it in plenty of standards especially if you look at the melody in combination with the chord symbol (some charts are better at writing in the #11 than others.)

I do really like 7 x 7 6 6 x as a voicing

Very Strayhorn to put an augmented triad on the b7, a sort of 1940s type of sound.

No reason why you can’t use this voicing on any dominant chord you like but it’s an obvious choice where it says 7#11.

Notice there’s no third in this chord; this makes it more mysterious and colouristic and less like a classical Mozart style dominant where the 3rd and 7th resolve in the standard way. Strayhorn was one of most important guys for developing what we now think of as ‘jazz harmony’ which is often about colour for its own sake

To me this evokes the whole tone more than Lydian dominant, although it fits either scale. Lydian dominant might be more like

7 x 6 6 6 x

Or the triad a half step up, C#, on a B bass, which is a nice, modernistic option. Dropping the seventh or third in a dominant makes everything sound more modern because it weakens the functionality of that chord and makes it more of thing unto itself. Here we’ve dropped both!

if it’s whole tone there’s no difference between the 7#11 and 7b5 chord; the scale doesn’t follow the normal rules of scale theory due its symmetrical nature and the fact that it only has six notes. This is also true of diminished half-whole which is another hip option, but in this case you would want to flat the 9, so

7 x 7 5 6 x

and now you have an F triad on the B bass. It’s like a tritone sub triad and would also fit the altered scale, but I don’t think that would be such a good choice in the sorts of contexts where you would see 7#11.

you may also like
7 x 7 5 9 x

which doesn’t have the #11 in it but is a great basic 13b9 voicing. Again - no 3rd. This type of harmony gets us into Coltrane style territory

i don’t know how your chord is moving, so it’s possible one of these may sound better you than the others. Trust your ears, not an Internet forum, but make sure you educate your ears by checking out what your favourite musicians do on a 7#11. The chord is a real gateway.

[ColMc52]

Thanks for the replies guys. Plenty to think about.

The chord is actually a Bb7#11 followed by an A7#11.
The tune is Kenny Baron's Revelation. A minor blues in Dm.

[ragman1]

Ah, ha! Well, here's a lead sheet and Yusef Lateef's version. Both have E7#9 and Eb7#9 (the recording plays that).

Not sure what you mean by A minor blues. It's all very much D minor.

Of course, Bb7 and A7 can be substituted as they're tritones. Personally, I think I'd just use the E and Eb, easier. But, if I did use A and Bb, I think I'd play Bb13 and A13. Sounds better.

If you insisted on Bb7#11 and A7#11, I'd play them as b5's, i.e. 6x675x and 5x564x.

[ragman1]

Mind you, there's also this, which has Kenny Baron on it, but it doesn't seem to be the same tune.

[ragman1]

There's also this from this site:

Kenny Barron "Revelation" Sheet Music | Download Printable Jazz PDF Score | How To Play On Real Book – Melody & Chords – C Instruments? SKU 60508

Here's a cut:





If this one is right then you can't play Eb7#9 or A13 because the melody notes at that point are natural F and E. So it would have to be A7b13. It would also clash with A7b5.

So I give up. I think you need someone smarter than me :-)

[ragman1]

So they just made up the music and the chords out of nowhere. Hey, they could have a hit on their hands*.

Who cares. This is why I want to see the OP's chart!

* In that case I'm not sure they can call it 'Revelation by Kenny Barron'.

[Ukena]

[...] The tune is Kenny Baron's Revelation. A minor blues in Dm.

[...] Not sure what you mean by A minor blues. It's all very much D minor. [...]

I don't think he's meaning Am blues; I read that he's saying it's a minor blues in Dm.

[Ukena]

My first discovery of a 7#11 was before I started my deeper diving into jazz guitar. I was figuring out an arrangement for an acoustic guitar trio I was heading (3 guitars) for Girl from Ipanema in F, and heard the penultimate chord of the first A part (just before the return to root – "Each one she passes, goes...") as a C7 with an F# in the bass. I played it with all 6 strings (as I was wont to do in those days, on my acoustic dreadnought), as 2 3 2 3 1 0.

I basically thought of it as a combination of a V7 and a bII7, combining two different ways to arrive at the I chord, leaving out the fifth of the C7, avoiding the clash of f# and g. Very handy, and easy to grab (using my thumb on that low F#).

I only later discovered that this is an F#7#11, doubling the #11, with no fifth. I also discovered that the same shape could be played up a tritone – 8 9 8 9 7 x – and gave the same notes, in different order, which meant that my F#7#11 could be easily substituted for a C7#11, and could resolve harmoniously to either an F as the tonic or a B as the tonic.

Then I realized that moving the bass note from the low E string to the top e string gave a nice 4-string shape: x x 2 3 1 2. But I still like that fuller sound of using the 5 lower strings (or all 6, for that F#7#11).

[ragman1]

I don't think he's meaning Am blues; I read that he's saying it's a minor blues in Dm.

Who knows? We don't even know what the right tune is yet, only what it's called. Let's see his chart.

[Reg]

Yea Colmc52...

So ya a Minor blues thing.

12 bar blues right. I could just say play Bb13#11 to A7alt ... going to D-7.

I general rule of thumb is to try and not play the same harmonic version of Dominant chords chromatically. There are lots of theoretical musically organized reasons for us, as christian likes to label noobs to get into why, But the easy answer is it just becomes harmonically muddy.

general rules... Sub V's use V7#11, derived from 4th degree of MM. (Bb7#11 is subV7 of A7)
V7's resolving to a Minor I-7 , in your example A7 going to D-7, usually imply an altered version of V7.
Most players have evolved to also using MM as source for notes... We construct the altered V7alt from the 7th degree of MM.

In the example, Kenny's revelations... he uses constant structure E7#9 to Eb7#9 to D-7. So yes both of the Subs Bb7#11 to A13#11 would be correct versions to use. The tune was recorded in 1960... it's back when we as players, composers and arrangers were expanding our harmonic understandings and common practice.

When actually playing the tune.... solos generally develop harmonically and your comping might also develop. Most players would generally get into making that A13#11... or the V7 chord an Altered harmonic reference and use the constant structure as a harmonic tool to help shape the structure of repeating the basic Form. Maybe even just the last chorus of solo to set up next soloist or head.

[MarkInLA]

Yada yada yada, I repeat: The reason labels b5 and #11 are in our vocabulary is because a b5 is closest to the root as possible and usually is causing a bass movement such as bass notes C Gb / F Cb / Bb Fb / Eb, etc..And the reason we say #11 is simply making sure the note is at least an octave higher than a b5. This is further supported by the fact that, as I'd said, you can have a chord: C E G B F# = [C Maj 7#11].
If b5 and #11 are equal to you you are causing someone to leave out the G nat. directly above the root, when the writer really wants it in.. So we say C7#11 to allow the G nat to be present below the #11.. IF I write [C7b5] I want C Gb E Bb.. If I say [C7#11] means I want or at least allow the G nat. and F# at the same time, unless I say [C7#11 no 5th] or perhaps [C7#11x5]..In other words there is a diff between a b5 and a #11, and that a nat 5th can or should be played while a #11 is sounded at the same time by you or another instrument...