The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkInLA
    Yada yada yada, I repeat: The reason labels b5 and #11 are in our vocabulary is because a b5 is closest to the root as possible and usually is causing a bass movement such as bass notes C Gb / F Cb / Bb Fb / Eb, etc..And the reason we say #11 is simply making sure the note is at least an octave higher than a b5. This is further supported by the fact that, as I'd said, you can have a chord: C E G B F# = [C Maj 7#11].
    If b5 and #11 are equal to you you are causing someone to leave out the G nat. directly above the root, when the writer really wants it in.. So we say C7#11 to allow the G nat to be present below the #11.. IF I write [C7b5] I want C Gb E Bb.. If I say [C7#11] means I want or at least allow the G nat. and F# at the same time, unless I say [C7#11 no 5th] or perhaps [C7#11x5]..In other words there is a diff between a b5 and a #11, and that a nat 5th can or should be played while a #11 is sounded at the same time by you or another instrument...
    in theory these are all well-made points. in practice nobody cares.

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  3. #27

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    It's slightly different on a guitar. Playing an E7#11, for instance, as x76776x is easy (and includes the 9). Playing it as x7879x is good too, although technically that's a 7b5.

    But 6th string-root chords are trickier. Playing A7#11 as 5x564x is perfectly permissible. Whereas finding a #11 voicing that includes the natural 5 isn't (although it can be done).

    The instrument itself poses certain limitations. And, as djg points out, it rarely makes much difference in practice. Especially if you leave out the root.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkInLA
    Yada yada yada, I repeat: The reason labels b5 and #11 are in our vocabulary is because a b5 is closest to the root as possible and usually is causing a bass movement such as bass notes C Gb / F Cb / Bb Fb / Eb, etc..And the reason we say #11 is simply making sure the note is at least an octave higher than a b5. This is further supported by the fact that, as I'd said, you can have a chord: C E G B F# = [C Maj 7#11].
    If b5 and #11 are equal to you you are causing someone to leave out the G nat. directly above the root, when the writer really wants it in.. So we say C7#11 to allow the G nat to be present below the #11.. IF I write [C7b5] I want C Gb E Bb.. If I say [C7#11] means I want or at least allow the G nat. and F# at the same time, unless I say [C7#11 no 5th] or perhaps [C7#11x5]..In other words there is a diff between a b5 and a #11, and that a nat 5th can or should be played while a #11 is sounded at the same time by you or another instrument...
    Meanwhile, monk looks at you funny and plays 7 8 7 8 x x

    followed by a whole tone run

  5. #29

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    So Mark, you seem to be talking about voicing choices, or guidelines and using that musical organization as process for spelling and labeling of chords. And maybe even using Brandt and Roemer's "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" as note source . While that is probable all the OP needs.... It's dated, can be muddy and harmonically limiting while comping. The OP's choice of Bb13 to A13 chord voicings make the performance aspect simple and still imply the #11 and nat. 5th in each chord...

    Sounds like OP is playing a HS or college band arrangement, maybe big band arrangement,

    The tune is a simple Min. Blues and it's Kenny Barron. More important while comping is using voicings with lead line melodies or melodic licks that help create feel and groove for soloist while implying harmonic references. I mean your going to probably play through the tune at least 20 times. You sure don't want to play the same voicing over and over etc...

  6. #30

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    What I state is true and correct..Stop with all the "Mark you must be using.............." and, " So and so would call it..........."
    I make it very very clear the distinction between the two and why there ARE both !...
    A b5 is close as possible to the root or is the route, alla: [D-7b5 / Db7b5]< sub for G7, to tonic > [Cmaj7#11] (= C E G B F#)..
    Stated another way: The #11 is always an interval of a maj7 above the the perfect 5th or one or several octaves above that.
    Enough ! You're gonna do what you want anyway !! I will argue it no further. I leap off here !

  7. #31

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    Ok... We disagree... I don't think what you say is true and correct.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMc52
    There was a B7#11 on a chart I'm learning. Initially I played it as 7x786x but it had me thinking this could be a B7b5 so I changed to 7x766x which has a 9th instead of the 3rd. Makes sense to me, R 7 9 11.

    But I just saw on the forum chord dictionary page, and in others places, that same chord but with the 3rd instead of the 9th.

    They're both legit chords but it seems more logical to use the 9th because it places the next note in the upper octave. #11.
    Can you post the chart, or at least an excerpt so that we can see the context?

    I googled it. Guitar World doesn't distinguish between b5 and #11. From one point of view, that's nonsensical. Perhaps it makes a bit more sense if you're a player trying to learn grips that will work. If you forget about the natural fifth and play either the b5 or the #11, most likely, you won't get any complaints.

    A piano site made a clear distinction. C E G Bb F# is C7#11. Has the 5th and, a major 7th above, the #11.

    I believe the piano site, but I behave more like the guitar site. It's not easy, on guitar, to play 7th chords with both 5 and #11. When we play chords that, per theory, have more than 4 notes, we usually pick 3 or 4 to play. The natural 5th is a pretty good candidate for omission (on the guitar) if the chart says 7#11. The pianist has the option of playing both more easily but, I suspect, would tend to forget the natural 5.

    But, all that is theoretical. To figure out what to do musically, it requires context. If the melody note is the b5/#11, the guitar player can safely leave out the natural 5th. We just have to view the context.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkInLA
    What I state is true and correct..Stop with all the "Mark you must be using.............." and, " So and so would call it..........."
    I make it very very clear the distinction between the two and why there ARE both !...
    A b5 is close as possible to the root or is the route, alla: [D-7b5 / Db7b5]< sub for G7, to tonic > [Cmaj7#11] (= C E G B F#)..
    Stated another way: The #11 is always an interval of a maj7 above the the perfect 5th or one or several octaves above that.
    Enough ! You're gonna do what you want anyway !! I will argue it no further. I leap off here !
    Yeah, I think I see where you are coming from. And if so, you are completely correct, but probably this understanding is beyond the scope of the original context.

    For instance take these two voicings:

    x 3 4 2 3 x
    x 3 x 2 3 2

    Both chord scale theory and functional harmony would view them as fundamentally the same thing, just different voicings, either of a consonant Lydian pitch collection or a dissonant third inversion dominant seventh.

    To my ears though, and I suspect others, the second is much more likely to be used as a lydian or lydian dominant voicing. The first sounds more straightforwardly functional and dissonant, the second more 'open' and consonant. (Context also helps of course.) In practice musicians have always known this type of thing whatever the theories said.

    Here is that muddy punster Gabriel Faure having fun and games with this for instance


    The progression is entirely functional, dominant of the dominant (you find it in the famous C major prelude by Bach for example), but the lingering on the third inversion dominant with the 3rd (or #11 interval) in the treble opens up a much more colouristic world. Joni Mitchell does the exact same thing here


    And Metheny, et al.

    Warne Marsh extended the major/lydian tonality to end on a C#
    C E G B D F# A C#

    This C# has a very different effect on top of a stack of thirds than in isolation, and certainly in a lower octave. Again, one would have to have no musical sensibility at all not to perceive this. Even non-musicians would notice the difference immediately.

    A further development of this would be Jacob Collier's Ultra-Hyper-Lydian scale (not a new idea either) that encompasses the whole chromatic gamut. More on this here:
    The Secret to the Lydian Sound & Jazz Improvisation • Jazzadvice

    However, I'm not sure if this necessarily holds. As far as I can tell Monk did not hear this note as a #11, but rather as a b5, invariably, and anchored it to the whole tone scale (although there is no distinction between #4 and b5 in the whole tone scale). Take the A Train can be considered an early example of the lydian dominant (G# on the D7 chord) but this G# actually appears in the lower octave. The Duke usually plays whole tone here when soloing, I notice.

    In practice jazz theory (or any kind of theory including functional harmonic theory) makes simplifications. Chord Scale Theory (CST) for instance (which is what this chat is about really) takes the stack of thirds, reduces it to under two octaves and squishes into a single octave. Hence the F# is always labelled #11 regardless of whether or not its a compound interval. This simplification powers CST but ignores some fairly fundamental aspects of acoustic physics. But people find it useful for some things like coming up with voicings or lines.

    At the end of the day all theory is just an aspect of the music.

    7#11-screenshot-2022-04-22-10-10-34-png

    And yet some jazz musicians seem to get terribly inflexible or defensive about whatever fairy story they were told at music college, whereas I say there's a lot of stories about music told by theorists, some of I have personally found more useful than others. Ah well, so long as people can play, that's the main thing.

    The other thing is that theses discussions become unmoored from music. Music theory does not exist in some Platonic space inhabited by crystal spheres and advanced algebra - it's an attempt to understand a human art form that has manifested itself in a million different ways even where it obeys the same underlying acoustical principles.

    In terms of is it a b5 or #11/#4? This is really an argument about enharmony or the alphabet rule, which is about writing things down. Jazz musicians, as we might expect from improvisors, seem to play fast and loose with both, so I'm not sure if it's such a big deal. Even the Berklee conventions don't always get honoured. I've often seen Lydian Dominant type chords (from context) labelled as b5. What matters of course, is the sound.

    Sincere apologies to the OP lol.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-22-2022 at 05:49 AM.

  10. #34
    All the charts I looked up go E7, Eb7 resolving to Dm.
    So this chart is Bb7#11, A7#11 resolve to Dm.
    I looked at the guitar, Bb7#11 is the same shape as E7. With the b5 in the bass.
    So my initial question about using the 9th over that E7 just turns it into a #5.
    Cheers.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMc52
    All the charts I looked up go E7, Eb7 resolving to Dm.
    So this chart is Bb7#11, A7#11 resolve to Dm.
    I looked at the guitar, Bb7#11 is the same shape as E7. With the b5 in the bass.
    So my initial question about using the 9th over that E7 just turns it into a #5.
    Cheers.
    Total theory nerd note:

    In D minor, I would have written the first as Bb7#11 as it is in the chart which suggests Bb lydian dominant or whole tone. In either case adding the major 9th is just fab. (Think 'Out of Nowhere') The #11 itself is diatonic to the key of D minor (it's an E)

    (As an aside, the classical scale over this chord is actually a D harmonic minor with a #4. Try it, it sounds like Mozart.)

    And the second I'd be most likely to write as A7b5 (A C# G Eb) because it first the Dm tonality and key signature better, unless the second chord specifically contains the F# (though I'm struggling to think of a common guitar grip for a dominant with both 13 and b5, though there's plenty of practicable ones.)

    This is because Eb is common in the minor key, as is C#. This chord strongly implies either the altered scale or a tritone sub over the A, which is super common in the minor tonality.

    That said, the other certainly isn't unheard of. In this case, the harmony suggests more the A half-whole. Peter Bernstein is VERY fond of this sound, for instance.

    Also, melodically, that Eb may revolve upwards to an E in the next chord (Dm9 very common with Bill Evans, think 'Blue in Green') in which case melodically its functioning more like a D# or #4 in terms of voice leading, but then it can also resolve to 1 like in the melody to Segment.

    All this stuff is kind of more about writing stuff down though. Jazz musicians as I say muck up enharmony and spelling all the time in a way that would horrify classical theorists and no-one gets hurt (c.f. the spelling of the Altered Scale lol). We can't even be arsed to write out a key signature half of the time.

    That's because for improvisors, it's always about the way things sound.

  12. #36
    Sorry, the key sig is Bb.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMc52
    Sorry, the key sig is Bb.
    OK, well the tune is Dm momentarily at that point as a temporary tonicisation - bVI7 V7 Im is a typical way to do that. You can think of it as a variation on a minor II V I.

    Besides there's an Eb in Bb :-)

  14. #38
    I meant that there is b on the middle staff line. Bb.

    Also as I understand it the bVI7 to the V7 is the typical minor blues.

    So it's in Dm and A7 is the V7 ?

  15. #39

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    ColMc52 -

    Will you please show us (or at least me) a photo of the chart you're using! I want to see the melody and why whoever-it-was put in Bb7/A7 (instead of E7/Eb7). If the tune's the one in the RB sheet upthread in post #17, that is.

    If you don't know how to do the image post I'll gladly show you, it's not difficult.

    Don't ignore this, please. We all need to see it and not assume a thing. It matters, at least it does if you want the right answer to your question. See, the fact is that you've already had the right answer, and more repeatedly, but you're still discussing it.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    one flat (b on the middle line) means you're in F/Dm.

    bVI7 to V7 is typical minor blues, but the chord may just as well be bVImaj7. Bbmaj7 A7 into Dm is just as legit. that's why you need to study tunes. and eventually you need to accept that function trumps chord.
    I might add to this that your fella Bb7 contains one note that's 'out of the key' of Dm.

    This note is Ab, which is...... what? (Think like a guitarist, you'll get it)

  17. #41
    <img src="https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=90767&stc=1" attachmentid="90767" alt="" id="vbattach_90767" class="previewthumb">
    Attached Images Attached Images 7#11-20220422_214240-jpg 

  18. #42
    Howzat?

  19. #43

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    Perfect! Thanks!

    Right, so we've got the right tune. But the thing is that I can't find a recording by Kenny Barron himself. I've looked at every track on every album and it's not there. Perhaps he wrote it for someone else, or it's there under another name. So it seems to be a bit of a mystery.

    But as I said before, there's that Eddie Henderson track called Revelation and has Barron on it... but it's not the same tune.

    The only one I found was the Yusef Lateef version, and he plays E7#9/Eb7#9 per that RB leadsheet. But I'm repeating everything I posted before.

    I don't know why your chart uses Bb/A. Of course, with a simple minor blues they would be the usual chords. By the way, the melody really determines that the Bb7 and A7 are actually 13's.

    So I suppose the question is: does it matter what you play? Answer: it's up to you. Personally, I'd be tempted to use the E/Eb version because it's unusual, it gets away from the predictable Bb7/A7 chords.

    Also, as I said before, playing A7#11 (except way up the neck) is tricky. Most players would just use the 7b5 versions. Or ignore the #11's altogether. But I would play them as 13's if you decide on them.

    (The theoretical differences between 7b5 and 7#11 are not very relevant here. Piano, yes, guitar not really. It's easier just to play some sort of altered chord at that point and the E7#9/Eb7#9 is perfectly good enough).

    Do tell me what you use in the end, I'd be interested :-)

    (What was crossed out on your chart? Copyright 1961 who? If they're using the copyright version, why change the chords?)

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Yeah, I think I see where you are coming from. And if so, you are completely correct, but probably this understanding is beyond the scope of the original context.

    [...]

    In terms of is it a b5 or #11/#4? This is really an argument about enharmony or the alphabet rule, which is about writing things down. Jazz musicians, as we might expect from improvisors, seem to play fast and loose with both, so I'm not sure if it's such a big deal. Even the Berklee conventions don't always get honoured. I've often seen Lydian Dominant type chords (from context) labelled as b5. What matters of course, is the sound.

    Sincere apologies to the OP lol.
    From the Aren't You Glad You Asked? Department.

  21. #45

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    Anyway, if there's a bass playing the root you are playing at least an octave plus a tritone above that, so how could you possibly distinguish a b5? And if there is no bass player, what does it matter?

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukena
    From the Aren't You Glad You Asked? Department.
    and then it turns out the dudes asking about minor blues haha which makes it worse

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColMc52
    <img src="https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/attachments/theory/90767-7-11-a-20220422_214240-jpg" attachmentid="90767" alt="" id="vbattach_90767" class="previewthumb">
    Thanks for this chart.

    On piano, I thought it sounded best with the both natural 5 and the #11. So, Bb D F Ab E G (the 13th, G, is in the melody).

    You can hear it on guitar by playing 6x675*. The * means you play the G on the high E string -- with your left thumb in front of the neck, then release it for the open E. To hear it with the b5, play the Jimi Hendrix chord, with your left thumb, behind the neck, grabbing the low Bb. You get the 13th on the B string and the #11 with the open E. Awkward grips.

    So, now, say the horn is playing the melody and the guitar, you, is comping. When you get to the Bb7#11, what do you play?

    Well, the melody has the #11 and 13, so the audience will hear those whether or not you play them. You could just play R 3 b7. Or, you could play the natural 5, if you're comping an octave below the melody. That will give the whole 7#11 chord which I thought sounded nice. I like the extra dissonance. But, if you played the b5 instead, nobody would complain. In fact, I think the natural 5 would be more likely to elicit complaints and by a wide margin.

    If you decide to play the #11/b5, which way will it sound best? No wrong answer, but I'd be inclined not to be in the same octave as the melody instrument.

    Behind the solos, it's a minor blues. It has those #11s, but are you going to play them every chorus? Suppose you play R 3 b7 and the soloist hits the #11. What then? If you're already comping an octave below the soloist (who is between middle C and an octave up from there), his note is going to sound like a #11 and your note is going to be either one or two octaves below that. So now, we're distinguishing between a #11 a b5 and, what is it? a minus 7? And, he might not do it on the next chorus.

    My guess is that most groups would end up playing a minor blues and varying the bars with the #11 chords the way they usually play a minor blues.

    But, suppose they didn't. As a practical matter, in Bb the note in question is an E. You've got three choices. 12th fret high E is likely too high to sound good except maybe as a quick accent, but it depends on the solo. If the band's energy goes up and solo is screaming, maybe it would be great.

    Next choice, 2nd fret D string, risks making a muddy sounding chord, especially if the bassist is in that octave, which isn't likely his first choice, but they don't wallow in the mud forever.

    So, most likely it's 5th fret B string. I don't know if I'd call that b5 or #11. Because it's no longer the guitar in isolation, it's what the audience hears.

    But, say you're accompanying a cello solo. Could happen. Are you really going to think about that E below middle C? A pianist might, but on guitar it tends to sound muddy to my ear. Maybe at that point you'd comp in the higher octave?

    After thinking about this for too long, I ended up thinking it's just not that big a deal. Every time you voice a chord you're making a choice about the octave for each note. Maybe this is no different.

  24. #48

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    I just played four improvised rounds, playing the two chords in bars 9 and 10 four different ways. Then I did a different solo for each round using different subs. Then I swapped them all around at random... didn't make any difference.

    No, really. That's why all this head-scratching is no good. Just use an altered chord and an altered solo and it'll work. And people will be amazed at your creative and imaginative prowess


    (You can hear the clips if you like)

  25. #49

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    Oh, hell with it! I'm going to take over the thread and demonstrate this!

    There are four ways to play the two chords in bars 9 and 10:

    1) E7#9 - Eb7#9
    2) Bb13 - A13
    3) Bb7b5 - A7b5
    4) E7b5 - Eb7b5

    Apart from the those two bars, all the solos are using the Dm pentatonic (which includes quartal sounds), Dm blues, D harmonic minor and D melodic minor (to give the m6 sound).

    ************************

    I used four different solo ideas over bars 9 and 10.

    Two straightforward ones:

    1) Dm blues (pentatonic with blue note)
    2) D harmonic minor

    A properly conceived altered one.

    3) Gm - F#m triads.

    (Imposing a Gm triad over, say, E7#9 gives the #9, #11 sound. Over the Bb7#11 it gives the 13, #11... and so on)

    A random chromatic solo I just made up at the time without prior thought:

    4) Bbm/Cm - C#m/Dm

    ***********************

    The first clip is the chords in order 1 - 4 and the solos in order, 1 - 4.

    The second is the same chord order but the solo order is changed to 3-1-4-2.

    The third (sorry if it's boring) is the same chord order but the solos change to 4-3-2-1.



    There are all the other combinations too, of course, but they all work. To be fair, it's true that some work better than others, aesthetically speaking, but none are wrong. The Gm/F#m triads over E7#9/Eb7#9, for example, are very good.

    So ultimately it doesn't really matter much. Jazz is about improvisation but improvisation isn't chaotic, it's generally this strange combination of unpremeditated lines based on safe principles.

    So I guess in the end it boils down to how much research one puts in. And, having gone through all that, one then realises that it doesn't matter that much! It's one of those anomalies in life.

  26. #50

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    PS.
    I never said you have to have the nat.5th and the #11 to have an #11 chord.. Yes, playing both at the same time on guitar is next to if not completely impossible..So, if you play say a C E Bb F# chord/arp I will call that a C7#11..because the #11 is eleven plus one half scale tones above the root..and not 4 and one half scale tones above the root (the 5th not present).. If you play C Gb Bb E chord in close harmony you have a C7b5...
    On a piano you can play C G E B F# and you have a complete CMaj7#11... Or, if you play C E Gb Bb you have a close harmony C7b5...

    In conclusion in order to call a note an 11th, it has to lay (lie ?) at least 11 and not 4 scale tones above the root...
    Allot of Disney, Star Trek, and other sci fi outer space movie makers' composers are always writing lydian sounding scores because I think that sound gives the music in an eerie 'where am I' flavor as if we're suspended somewhere in the vacuum of space..It's that high up in octaves #11 causing the (lydian) atmosphere...That certainly would not be the case if the score were filled with b5 chords, would it ?

    I really do now leap off here...
    Thanks for any and all replies
    M