Wayne Shorter original charts - are they available?

[Cunamara]

Comping actually is the same - I think of it as of a thick dense counterpoint melody - ideally... unfortunately I do not have this the way I would love to. Imho to play comping like that one has to have much more elaborated vocabulary on th efretboard. I have just to practice more with that.

Ed Bickert had a beautiful way of doing just that. Part of it was that he left the root-5th to the bassist and played extensions, tensions, upper partials, etc. He described it like the bass being the pianist's left hand and the guitar being the right hand.

[JCat]

As we speak, I'm working on Shorter's "Speak No Evil".

The 11th chord is used extensively in the original recording. It's close to 7sus4, that contains no third, sounds like a major chord but is technically a minor chord (an ambiguity that makes some people try to avoid it).

In some places Toots plays A7#5 where Shorter plays C11(and G7#5 vs Bb11). (A scale +5 =C scale 4 = F).

If we assume that Shorter's band plays it like he intended (fair assumption), then Toots' band is substituting/re-harmonizing.

If Toots' boys plays it like Shorter wrote it, then Shorter doesn't play it like he wrote it.

-Does it matter? Not much, I think.

In this context I think of A7#5 as a re-harmonization of the chord C7sus4. It's not a clear cut substitution. The sound of the 7sus4 is what I hear in this tune (and I know that people with a classic background sometimes don't gel with the 7sus4).

[Christian Miller]

As we speak, I'm working on Shorter's "Speak No Evil".

The 11th chord is used extensively in the original recording. It's close to 7sus4, that contains no third, sounds like a major chord but is technically a minor chord (an ambiguity that makes some people try to avoid it).

In some places Toots plays A7#5 where Shorter plays C11(and G7#5 vs Bb11). (A scale +5 =C scale 4 = F).

If we assume that Shorter's band plays it like he intended (fair assumption), then Toots' band is substituting/re-harmonizing.

If Toots' boys plays it like Shorter wrote it, then Shorter doesn't play it like he wrote it.

-Does it matter? Not much, I think.

In this context I think of A7#5 as a re-harmonization of the chord C7sus4. It's not a clear cut substitution. The sound of the 7sus4 is what I hear in this tune (and I know that people with a classic background sometimes don't gel with the 7sus4).

When I have the time and inclination I’d rather make these decisions from an informed position, dive deep into a tune - however in reality people give you lead sheets and you play them on gigs haha.

You can change stuff of course. It is like jazz or something

And on gigs its nice when people are able to make helpful suggestions for tunes from their knowledge of the repertoire without coming across as if they are vibing you; some people have this skill. Working on it myself haha

[Jonah]

e played Metheny's Bright Size Life yesterday. I have authorized PM's Real Book with his own intro and explanations.

There is Bbmaj7b5/A which I figured out to be a sort of the A sus chord.. the function at this place of the tune is definitely dominant (key is D major) and the chord makes A major triad with suspended 4th (no 3rd) and b9.
The chord resolves directly in D major triad... it has very stron Dadd9 sound because of the melodic turnaround

It is also interesting that sus chords in the bridge (those straightforward soul style sus G/A and F/G) do not coincide with the melody.. I mean if I had the melody only I never heard the record I would not have it harmonized that way.

In that sense chords here add some other dimension and colour

Interesting that he does not play the tune as it is written out by himself. The written versin looks deliberately elaborated so that it wuld make more sense when you just sight-read it.

Those jumps in the bridge in the style of the monodic hidden poliphony (when you have two voices but the texture is linear) - in many performances he does not play them - just playen upper melodic voice.

[JCat]

When I have the time and inclination I’d rather make these decisions from an informed position, dive deep into a tune - however in reality people give you lead sheets and you play them on gigs haha.

You can change stuff of course. It is like jazz or something

And on gigs its nice when people are able to make helpful suggestions for tunes from their knowledge of the repertoire without coming across as if they are vibing you; some people have this skill. Working on it myself haha

I have no clue about the original charts (and I never take random fake-book charts for granted).

"Speak No Evil" is a legendary album (arguably Shorter's finest), but it's also a great title track. To my surprise this tune is not listed on Jazzstandards.com, but there are countless of weird chord suggestions to be found on the web.

You know I think the band must be in agreement. Sometimes we have to sit down and talk. Maybe we want the music to do the talking, but I don't see how that's possible when everyone is playing a different tune. That's chaos, not jazz, I think. When negotiations fail, it's better to play something else.

When a chart (original or not) doesn't reflect a recording, we have to negotiate. I wouldn't assume that the "original chart" is always a fair judge. Wayne speaks to me through my hi-fi loudspeakers, he's my guide. Toots is cool and offers an alternative approach that some may prefer. I'm fine either way, we just have to agree...

[Christian Miller]

e played Metheny's Bright Size Life yesterday. I have authorized PM's Real Book with his own intro and explanations.

There is Bbmaj7b5/A which I figured out to be a sort of the A sus chord.. the function at this place of the tune is definitely dominant (key is D major) and the chord makes A major triad with suspended 4th (no 3rd) and b9.
The chord resolves directly in D major triad... it has very stron Dadd9 sound because of the melodic turnaround

It is also interesting that sus chords in the bridge (those straightforward soul style sus G/A and F/G) do not coincide with the melody.. I mean if I had the melody only I never heard the record I would not have it harmonized that way.

In that sense chords here add some other dimension and colour

Interesting that he does not play the tune as it is written out by himself. The written versin looks deliberately elaborated so that it wuld make more sense when you just sight-read it.

Those jumps in the bridge in the style of the monodic hidden poliphony (when you have two voices but the texture is linear) - in many performances he does not play them - just playen upper melodic voice.

Isn’t it actually Bb in the bass on the Bbmaj7#11 chord on the record? I remember having this discussion on the forum a few months back. I’ll have another listen, but I think other Metheny versions I checked also have the Bb bass.

so that implies Pat wrote an A bass and Jaco ignored him lol.

[JCat]

Interesting that he does not play the tune as it is written out by himself. The written versin looks deliberately elaborated so that it wuld make more sense when you just sight-read it.
.

-Isn't this often the case?
I constantly run into similar situations when I write. I try my best to apply theory, to document my work in a way that it becomes a fair representation of the music. But at the end of the day the documentation is just an inferior model of reality, because chord symbols and standard notation are limited representations of the sound of music.

There's this guy, a very talented musician and song writer. He names the chords after the look of the shape of his fingers; "The Pyramid", "The Elephant" and so on He's doing great.

There is Bbmaj7b5/A which I figured out to be a sort of the A sus chord...

.

Yeah, it sounds like a Asus4. But if you intend to play A major triads over it, technically it's not a sus4. Because the sus4 chord is a minor chord.

[Jonah]

Yeah, it sounds like a Asus4. But if you intend to play A major triads over it, technically it's not a sus4. Because the sus4 chord is a minor chord.

I did not get about minor? Why sus4 is minor chord?

[Christian Miller]

?

-Isn't this often the case?
I constantly run into similar situations when I write. I try my best to apply theory, to document my work in a way that it becomes a fair representation of the music. But at the end of the day the documentation is just an inferior model of reality, because chord symbols and standard notation are limited representations of the sound of music.

There's this guy, a very talented musician and song writer. He names the chords after the look of the shape of his fingers; "The Pyramid", "The Elephant" and so on He's doing great.




Yeah, it sounds like a Asus4. But if you intend to play A major triads Mo over it, technically it's not a sus4. Because the sus4 chord is a minor chord.

My ears have never bought that as a general principle; though you are right in this instance I think.

Sus4 means suspended 4th so the origin of the chord is simply from carrying the 4th from the ii or IV chord into the V chord and then resolving. For some unknown reason mainstream jazz theorists get touchy about the 4th being an ‘avoid’ note on dominant and the 3rd being an avoid note on sus4, but in practice no one gives a shit. (ie Wes, etc)

The idea that sus chords are kind of … what … Dorian or Dorian b2? I think comes from here. I’m not convinced (to put it mildly) that this matches up with actual practice. Students of theory should I think regard these things with a bit of skepticism. As a suggested colour? Sure, why not? As a description of what jazzers always do on sus chords, demonstrably incorrect. (All the CST adherents always have a hand wave haha.)

In practice it’s highly context dependent. I think playing a C natural on this chord is typical for Pat and probably me too but that’s mostly cos I’m thinking of Bbmaj7#11; D major/minor modal mixture. Bb Lydian. There’s no good reason to outline A major on that chord.

Although, Jaco plays Bb, so none of this is relevant. Which makes me (in this post modal context) not want to outline Bb; maybe C? Or even Am? So there’s your context I suppose.

C# on Bbmaj7#11 though? Bbmaj7#9#11. Quite an Adam Rogers choice to my ears.

[JCat]

I did not get about minor? Why sus4 is minor chord?

Simply because the 4th is incompatible with a major 3rd. It's a dissonance unbearable to most people.

[Jonah]

Isn’t it actually Bb in the bass on the Bbmaj7#11 chord on the record? I remember having this discussion on the forum a few months back. I’ll have another listen, but I think other Metheny versions I checked also have the Bb bass.

so that implies Pat wrote an A bass and Jaco ignored him lol.

Hm.. yes original sounds Bb.... Interesnting that Pat kept that as an authorized version. His real book has such an extensive introdution from him on how carefully he chose and edited material


but sometimes it seems I hear also low G there?

And here I hear A (there is not bassist on this record.. i guess it is played on synth?)

and here Richard Bona plays Bb

Here Ulf Wakenius plays clearly a chord with Bb while comping the theme

and Pat plays something like Gm6 or Gm6/9? At least on the first line of Ulf's improvization

[Christian Miller]

Simply because the 4th is incompatible with a major 3rd. It's a dissonance unbearable to most people.

Compare the sound of a 4th on a major seventh chord to a dominant and get back to me on that.

[JCat]

For some unknown reason mainstream jazz theorists get touchy about the 4th being an ‘avoid’ note on dominant and the 3rd being an avoid note on sus4, but in practice no one gives a shit. (ie Wes, etc)

Yeah, but isn't it great then that we've got the 11th chord to play with? Can't play more than six simultaneous notes on a six string guitar anyway...

[Jonah]

Simply because the 4th is incompatible with a major 3rd. It's a dissonance unbearable to most people.

I just treat sus 4 as it originally is in this case - a classic suspention 4 - 3... there is no 3rd in my understanding in this chord (even if this 4th stays unresolved to maj3rd at all). And this kind of suspesion is definitely to major3rd... tension to minor 3rd is so weak that it will not make sense to suspepnd.. and harmonically it does not make any conventional sense, it does not lead anywhere - whereas suspention to major 3rd anticipates cadence to tonic.

Also basic IV/V chord (like F/G) it is not major or minor but there is definitely dom7th chord behind it (with major 3rd) - though it is often also resolved directly into tonic chord
Kind of mix of both domoninat and subdominant in one.


What you mean would probably be add4 ?

[JCat]

Compare the sound of a 4th on a major seventh chord to a dominant and get back to me on that.

I dig the 7sus4 chord, but I've sort of accepted that when the major 3rd is free game, then its preferred to use the 11th chord extention. Anyway I frequently use the "7sus4" extension myself without giving it much consideration if it's major or minor

[JCat]

I just treat sus 4 as it originally is in this case - a classic suspention 4 - 3... there is no 3rd in my understanding in this chord (even if this 4th stays unresolved to maj3rd at all).

When composing melody or improvising; If there's a major 3rd some people just don't like the chord to be named sus4, that's all. Then I'm fine to replace "7sus4" with "11".

By the way, I find that "7sus4" is often mixed up with "sus4", a different beast..."add11" would be more common than "add4" I think.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, but isn't it great then that we've got the 11th chord to play with? Can't play more than six simultaneous notes on a six string guitar anyway...

Well it’s more that if someone comps a V7 chord you can play a IV or iim over the top.

[Christian Miller]

I dig the 7sus4 chord, but I've sort of accepted that when the major 3rd is free game, then its preferred to use the 11th chord extention. Anyway I frequently use the "7sus4" extension myself without giving it much consideration if it's major or minor

Yeah. I mean I wouldn’t play the 3rd if I wanted to bring out the sus-ness of the chord. b3 can sound hip too. But it’s not a clash to play one against the other - sus chords and dominants can play together in a group and there’s plenty of recordings to show it. A big part of Barry Harris’s teaching is based on this.

[Jonah]

When composing melody or improvising; If there's a major 3rd some people just don't like the chord to be named sus4, that's all. Then I'm fine to replace "7sus4" with "11".

By the way, I find that "7sus4" is often mixed up with "sus4", a different beast..."add11" would be more common than "add4" I think.

yeh probably add11 would work better.

'Sus theory' in modern jazz is a little obscure to me.... the guy I play with calls 'sus' a whole bunch of chords that I would actually classify and use in quite different ways

[Christian Miller]

Messing around on the piano

Def hear the C-7 on footprints as Bb/C and the F-7 as Eb/F based on the melodic material. So there’s some minor sus chords JCat :-)

I like Am/F# G/F Bb/E Eb/A for the turnaround. I’ll have a look at Wayne’s chart for the original extensions and see if I have some other ideas.

Notice in Speak No Evil the E-7 C-7 D-7 Bb-7 the melody outlines the sus (or m11) us triads against the bass, so D/E Bb/C C/D Ab/Bb; Wayne clearly liked this sound.

apols if you’ve already mentioned it JCat

[Jonah]

Messing around on the piano

Def hear the C-7 on footprints as Bb/C and the F-7 as Eb/F based on the melodic material. So there’s some minor sus chords JCat :-)

I agree about F-7, Eb/F works there...

But Bb/C on C-7 ... possible but not that convincing to my ear.
I hear strong Dorian sound on thus chord... sort of mixing C-7 and F7.
So minor seems 'must'
Bb/C leaves some space for A but not for Eb.

I think this is exactly why Eb/F works on F-7. Minor quality is not that important here.

[Christian Miller]

I agree about F-7, Eb/F works there...

But Bb/C on C-7 ... possible but not that convincing to my ear.
I hear strong Dorian sound on thus chord... sort of mixing C-7 and F7.
So minor seems 'must'

There’s no Eb in the melody though. It actually avoids the minor tonality. The bass of course outlines a Cm triad. So this makes me think that Wayne is hearing a superimposed tonality; Cm with a Bb over the top. It sounds right to me anyway….

So more of a Bb/Cm7 tonality if you like, which is to say Cm11

[Jonah]

There’s no Eb in the melody though. It actually avoids the minor tonality. The bass of course outlines a Cm triad. So this makes me think that Wayne is hearing a superimposed tonality; Cm with a Bb over the top. It sounds right to me anyway….

So more of a Bb/Cm7 tonality if you like, which is to say Cm11

Sure. I saw no Eb in the melody... but it is overall feeling.
And the record implies minor as you noticed.

Maybe also for me a tradition of genre? I hear minor blues... Hidden genre reference is one of the strongest elements of musical language for centuries.

[Christian Miller]

Sure. I saw no Eb in the melody... but it is overall feeling.
And the record implies minor as you noticed.

Maybe also for me a tradition of genre? I hear minor blues... Hidden genre reference is one of the strongest elements of musical language for centuries.

Wayne’s music is steeped in the melodic traditions of the blues. I think this is something the chord scale type analyses forget - on this forum we were discussing Night Dreamer and the fact that Wayne pretty much blows the blues on the first section.

But the suspended blues tonality is also a Wayne technique, where we use for instance G minor pent or Bb Major pent on C minor or Csus. He apps uses this technique on Yes and No for example; Am/C pent on the D7sus4 chord. And the triads I mentioned in Speak no Evil use similar harmony if not melody. Wes was also a fan of this sound. It’s a 60s thing….

Also of course that Phrygian/Lydian application eg Cm/A pent on Cm7 Dbmaj7 vamp comes up a few times…. Allows him to play blues while getting different harmony

[Christian Miller]

Also Cm7 isn’t really minor, but that’s another thread….