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Originally Posted by Jonah
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03-22-2022 07:08 PM
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As we speak, I'm working on Shorter's "Speak No Evil".
The 11th chord is used extensively in the original recording. It's close to 7sus4, that contains no third, sounds like a major chord but is technically a minor chord (an ambiguity that makes some people try to avoid it).
In some places Toots plays A7#5 where Shorter plays C11(and G7#5 vs Bb11). (A scale +5 =C scale 4 = F).
If we assume that Shorter's band plays it like he intended (fair assumption), then Toots' band is substituting/re-harmonizing.
If Toots' boys plays it like Shorter wrote it, then Shorter doesn't play it like he wrote it.
-Does it matter? Not much, I think.
In this context I think of A7#5 as a re-harmonization of the chord C7sus4. It's not a clear cut substitution. The sound of the 7sus4 is what I hear in this tune (and I know that people with a classic background sometimes don't gel with the 7sus4).
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Originally Posted by JCat
You can change stuff of course. It is like jazz or something
And on gigs its nice when people are able to make helpful suggestions for tunes from their knowledge of the repertoire without coming across as if they are vibing you; some people have this skill. Working on it myself haha
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e played Metheny's Bright Size Life yesterday. I have authorized PM's Real Book with his own intro and explanations.
There is Bbmaj7b5/A which I figured out to be a sort of the A sus chord.. the function at this place of the tune is definitely dominant (key is D major) and the chord makes A major triad with suspended 4th (no 3rd) and b9.
The chord resolves directly in D major triad... it has very stron Dadd9 sound because of the melodic turnaround
It is also interesting that sus chords in the bridge (those straightforward soul style sus G/A and F/G) do not coincide with the melody.. I mean if I had the melody only I never heard the record I would not have it harmonized that way.
In that sense chords here add some other dimension and colour
Interesting that he does not play the tune as it is written out by himself. The written versin looks deliberately elaborated so that it wuld make more sense when you just sight-read it.
Those jumps in the bridge in the style of the monodic hidden poliphony (when you have two voices but the texture is linear) - in many performances he does not play them - just playen upper melodic voice.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I have no clue about the original charts (and I never take random fake-book charts for granted).
"Speak No Evil" is a legendary album (arguably Shorter's finest), but it's also a great title track. To my surprise this tune is not listed on Jazzstandards.com, but there are countless of weird chord suggestions to be found on the web.
You know I think the band must be in agreement. Sometimes we have to sit down and talk. Maybe we want the music to do the talking, but I don't see how that's possible when everyone is playing a different tune. That's chaos, not jazz, I think. When negotiations fail, it's better to play something else.
When a chart (original or not) doesn't reflect a recording, we have to negotiate. I wouldn't assume that the "original chart" is always a fair judge. Wayne speaks to me through my hi-fi loudspeakers, he's my guide. Toots is cool and offers an alternative approach that some may prefer. I'm fine either way, we just have to agree...
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Originally Posted by Jonah
so that implies Pat wrote an A bass and Jaco ignored him lol.
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Originally Posted by Jonah
I constantly run into similar situations when I write. I try my best to apply theory, to document my work in a way that it becomes a fair representation of the music. But at the end of the day the documentation is just an inferior model of reality, because chord symbols and standard notation are limited representations of the sound of music.
There's this guy, a very talented musician and song writer. He names the chords after the look of the shape of his fingers; "The Pyramid", "The Elephant" and so on He's doing great.
Originally Posted by Jonah
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Originally Posted by JCat
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Originally Posted by JCat
Sus4 means suspended 4th so the origin of the chord is simply from carrying the 4th from the ii or IV chord into the V chord and then resolving. For some unknown reason mainstream jazz theorists get touchy about the 4th being an ‘avoid’ note on dominant and the 3rd being an avoid note on sus4, but in practice no one gives a shit. (ie Wes, etc)
The idea that sus chords are kind of … what … Dorian or Dorian b2? I think comes from here. I’m not convinced (to put it mildly) that this matches up with actual practice. Students of theory should I think regard these things with a bit of skepticism. As a suggested colour? Sure, why not? As a description of what jazzers always do on sus chords, demonstrably incorrect. (All the CST adherents always have a hand wave haha.)
In practice it’s highly context dependent. I think playing a C natural on this chord is typical for Pat and probably me too but that’s mostly cos I’m thinking of Bbmaj7#11; D major/minor modal mixture. Bb Lydian. There’s no good reason to outline A major on that chord.
Although, Jaco plays Bb, so none of this is relevant. Which makes me (in this post modal context) not want to outline Bb; maybe C? Or even Am? So there’s your context I suppose.
C# on Bbmaj7#11 though? Bbmaj7#9#11. Quite an Adam Rogers choice to my ears.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-25-2022 at 06:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jonah
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Hm.. yes original sounds Bb.... Interesnting that Pat kept that as an authorized version. His real book has such an extensive introdution from him on how carefully he chose and edited material
but sometimes it seems I hear also low G there?
And here I hear A (there is not bassist on this record.. i guess it is played on synth?)
and here Richard Bona plays Bb
Here Ulf Wakenius plays clearly a chord with Bb while comping the theme
and Pat plays something like Gm6 or Gm6/9? At least on the first line of Ulf's improvization
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Originally Posted by JCat
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by JCat
Also basic IV/V chord (like F/G) it is not major or minor but there is definitely dom7th chord behind it (with major 3rd) - though it is often also resolved directly into tonic chord
Kind of mix of both domoninat and subdominant in one.
What you mean would probably be add4 ?
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Jonah
By the way, I find that "7sus4" is often mixed up with "sus4", a different beast..."add11" would be more common than "add4" I think.
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Originally Posted by JCat
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Originally Posted by JCat
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Originally Posted by JCat
yeh probably add11 would work better.
'Sus theory' in modern jazz is a little obscure to me.... the guy I play with calls 'sus' a whole bunch of chords that I would actually classify and use in quite different ways
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Messing around on the piano
Def hear the C-7 on footprints as Bb/C and the F-7 as Eb/F based on the melodic material. So there’s some minor sus chords JCat :-)
I like Am/F# G/F Bb/E Eb/A for the turnaround. I’ll have a look at Wayne’s chart for the original extensions and see if I have some other ideas.
Notice in Speak No Evil the E-7 C-7 D-7 Bb-7 the melody outlines the sus (or m11) us triads against the bass, so D/E Bb/C C/D Ab/Bb; Wayne clearly liked this sound.
apols if you’ve already mentioned it JCat
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
But Bb/C on C-7 ... possible but not that convincing to my ear.
I hear strong Dorian sound on thus chord... sort of mixing C-7 and F7.
So minor seems 'must'
Bb/C leaves some space for A but not for Eb.
I think this is exactly why Eb/F works on F-7. Minor quality is not that important here.
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Originally Posted by Jonah
So more of a Bb/Cm7 tonality if you like, which is to say Cm11
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
And the record implies minor as you noticed.
Maybe also for me a tradition of genre? I hear minor blues... Hidden genre reference is one of the strongest elements of musical language for centuries.
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Originally Posted by Jonah
But the suspended blues tonality is also a Wayne technique, where we use for instance G minor pent or Bb Major pent on C minor or Csus. He apps uses this technique on Yes and No for example; Am/C pent on the D7sus4 chord. And the triads I mentioned in Speak no Evil use similar harmony if not melody. Wes was also a fan of this sound. It’s a 60s thing….
Also of course that Phrygian/Lydian application eg Cm/A pent on Cm7 Dbmaj7 vamp comes up a few times…. Allows him to play blues while getting different harmony
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Also Cm7 isn’t really minor, but that’s another thread….
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