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  1. #1

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    I studied for about two years with Barry Harris in the 90s. I don't recall him ever advocating for harmonic minor usage on a ii V i in minor.
    I seem to recall he actually disliked that simplistic approach as taught by some teachers.
    I personally never think of "harmonic minor" scales on a ii V i in minor. I think as Barry advocated: on A-7b5 D7b9 play the F7 scale down from its 7th to the 3rd of D7 (F# is an added half step and a chord tone).
    On G-6 I'll play as Barry advocated: play the G- melodic minor scale with and added #5 (the "G minor six diminished scale")

    Anybody have any experience or recollections about Barry's opinions on harmonic minor scale usage?
    Last edited by rintincop; 03-21-2022 at 02:35 PM.

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  3. #2

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    He had us run it off each degree in the late 90's early 2000's in Toronto. I was flummoxed as he'd never mentioned it before.
    Last edited by A. Kingstone; 03-14-2022 at 10:09 PM.

  4. #3

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    I was able to take most of his online classes so about 1 3/4 years worth, plus have seen MANY videos of his workshops and that others have done about his teaching. Every time he teaches this, he stops on the F# note descending when on the progression mentioned by Rintincop. It is impossible for me to determine if Barry meant to add an extra note to the scale or if every F note turns into F# (this would make G harmonic minor).

    This is something I’ve always wondered about since becoming a Barry follower a few years back. Anyone who can answer this for me I would be very appreciative.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    I was able to take most of his online classes so about 1 3/4 years worth, plus have seen MANY videos of his workshops and that others have done about his teaching. Every time he teaches this, he stops on the F# note descending when on the progression mentioned by Rintincop. It is impossible for me to determine if Barry meant to add an extra note to the scale or if every F note turns into F# (this would make G harmonic minor).

    This is something I’ve always wondered about since becoming a Barry follower a few years back. Anyone who can answer this for me I would be very appreciative.
    Think of it as playing F7 into D7. F7 and D7 are "brothers and sisters" a minor 3rd apart. You play F7 over Am7b5, starting on the Eb which is the b7 of F7 (and the b5 of Am7b5), because Am7b5 is Cm6, which is the m6 on the 5 of F7. You play the scale down to G, the b7 of Am7b5, then resolve to F#, the 3rd of D7.

  6. #5
    F shows up if you keep descending on piano, otherwise the chord tones will be put off the beat. An 8 tone scale keeps chord tones on the beat. That F note is the #9 of D7 of course. I run this scale over the first 12 bars of “Caravan”. Thus I play Eb7 down from its 7th to E and then continue it via an Eb down the next octave.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Think of it as playing F7 into D7. F7 and D7 are "brothers and sisters" a minor 3rd apart. You play F7 over Am7b5, starting on the Eb which is the b7 of F7 (and the b5 of Am7b5), because Am7b5 is Cm6, which is the m6 on the 5 of F7. You play the scale down to G, the b7 of Am7b5, then resolve to F#, the 3rd of D7.
    Thanks for the response PC, really appreciate that.

    I was aware of the brothers and sisters, F7 to D7. Somehow to my ears though, normal D7 scale lines don't sound as strong into Gm as does the G harmonic minor scale notes. The Eb and Bb seem to have a color I like. I would have loved to know Barry well enough to ask this...

  8. #7
    Back to the OP. I cannot recall Barry’s comments on his useage of harmonic minor. I personally never think of harmonic minor scales. For my scale outlining it’s Barrys “minor’s five” on the ii V and melodic minor with added #5 over the tonic.
    I recall Marrk Levine was very anti harmonic minor. He hated the harsh minor 3rd interval in it which I can understand.

  9. #8

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    Mick Goodrick and Mike Stern call the harmonic minor "mixolydian flat 2 and flat 6..."

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I studied for about two years with Barry Harris in the 90s. I don't recall him ever advocating for harmonic minor usage on a ii V i in minor.
    I seem to recall he actually disliked that simplistic approach as taught by some teachers.
    I personally never think of "harmonic minor" scales on a ii V i in minor. I think as Barry advocated: on A-7b5 D7b9 play the F7 scale down from its 7th to the 3rd of D7 (F# is an added half step and a chord tone).
    On G-6 I'll play as Barry advocated: play the G- melodic minor scale with and added #5 (the "G minor six diminished scale")

    Anybody have any experience or recollections about Barry's opinions on harmonic minor scale usage?
    Not sure. Harmonic minor crops up in DVD 2, but I’m cautious as to how much of that is Barry and how much is Howard. You can add notes to it like any scale.

    I do remember Barry specifically saying that you might want to avoid harmonic minor on a minor ii V (so play mostly F7 and not much if any F# in your example.) but I got the impression that had more to do with just having more stuff to play on the dominant scale in general rather than a dislike for the scale.

    And given that scale is all over his beloved Bird, Bud and Bach, I find it hard to believe he had an aesthetic dislike of it. Conceptually altering the dominant scale gets you into it, as you say, without needing to think harmonic minor specifically.

  11. #10

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    I'm surprised this is new to anyone here. Also that stuff about always starting on the 7th etc., is BS, in my opinion.

  12. #11

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    I don't give a fig about Barry Harris' opinion. He wants to rewrite history and mess with your mind, like that Lydian concept person.

    A-7b5 D7b9 play the F7 scale down from its 7th to the 3rd of D7 (F# is an added half step and a chord tone)
    That's Eb D C Bb A G F#.

    Those notes ARE the (Gm) harmonic minor scale. For chrissakes.

  13. #12
    Barry's "minor’s five” scale. It’s parallel to the 5th mode of harmonic minor. Barry Harris added a note to the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale and described his use as "on D-7b5 to G7 play down from the 7th of Bb7 to B the 3rd of G7” (especially over D-7b5 to G7b9 which is a ii V in “minor”. He nicknamed this eight tone scale “the minor’s five”. Being eight tones it has the advantage of placing the chord tones on the beats which enables a melody to reinforce the underlying harmony. It also eliminates the harsh augmented second melodic interval found in the seven tone 5th mode of harmonic minor. Another advantage is that gives improvisers an access to their often more familiar dominant scale vocabulary. Meaning, I know a heck of a lot more to do playing down my Bb7 scale than up a 5th mode of a harmonic minor with its harsh augmented 2nd.
    Barry Harris further recognized that the descending form has an especially melodic quality rather than being played up from a root. He said he first noticed this particular descending permutation being played by Charlie Parker several times on “What Is This Thing Called Love?”.
    Furthermore, in bebop it is common to interchange the Mixolydian scales a minor third apart over chord in the same “family” of dominants. For example: G7 Bb7 Db7 and E7 are all relatives in bebop and may all interchange their Mixolydian scales. This family of dominants includes the “backdoor” chord, the tritone sub and the “minor’s five” . As taught by Barry Harris.

    Last edited by rintincop; 03-20-2022 at 05:49 PM.

  14. #13
    Applied to "Caravan"
    Attached Images Attached Images Barry Harris's opinion of harmonic minor scale?-caravan-barry-harris-scale-png 

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I'm not sure why I bother posting here... I think my comments are ill received by those who oppose alternate views.
    “The minor’s five”. It’s a relative of the 5th mode of harmonic minor. Barry Harris added a note to the scale and described his use as "on G7 play down from the 7th of Bb7 to B the 3rd of G7” and especially over D-7b5 to G7b9 (a ii V in “minor”). He nicknamed this eight tone scale “the minor’s five”. Being eight tones it has the advantage of placing the chord tones on the beats which enables a melody to reinforce the underlying harmony. It also eliminates the harsh augmented second melodic interval found in the seven tone 5th mode of harmonic minor. Another advantage is that gives improvisers an access to their often more familiar dominant scale vocabulary. Meaning, I know a heck of a lot more to do playing down my Bb7 scale than up a 5th mode of a harmonic minor with its harsh augmented 2nd.
    Barry Harris further recognized that the descending form has an especially melodic quality rather than being played up from a root. He said he first noticed this particular descending permutation being played by Charlie Parker several times on “What Is This Thing Called Love?”.
    Furthermore, in bebop it is common to interchange the Mixolydian scales a minor third apart over chord in the same “family” of dominants. For example: G7 Bb7 Db7 and E7 are all relatives in bebop and may all interchange their Mixolydian scales. This family of dominants includes the “backdoor” chord, the tritone sub and the “minor’s five” . As taught by Barry Harris.

    I'm trying to understand this and would appreciate any help.

    In Dm7 G7b9 Cm, are we talking about C harmonic minor? C D Eb F G Ab B. And then add Bb? Looks like what some might call a Bb7b9 scale. Bb mixo with an added b9. Is this correct?

    From the point of view of G7, it's G Ab Bb B C D Eb F. Some might call it a G7b9#9b13 (cumbersome, but clear). The C note is probably best over the Dm7b5, resolving to B on the G7b9. On guitar, you might play xx3446 to get the b13 and #9.

    And, what did Barry Harris mean when he said to play down from Ab to B? Was he advocating simply running this scale? This has been mentioned before on this forum and I'm trying to understand the context of this instruction.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm trying to understand this and would appreciate any help.

    In Dm7 G7b9 Cm, are we talking about C harmonic minor? C D Eb F G Ab B. And then add Bb? Looks like what some might call a Bb7b9 scale. Bb mixo with an added b9. Is this correct?

    From the point of view of G7, it's G Ab Bb B C D Eb F. Some might call it a G7b9#9b13 (cumbersome, but clear). The C note is probably best over the Dm7b5, resolving to B on the G7b9. On guitar, you might play xx3446 to get the b13 and #9.
    Barry didn’t really use any of this language. I don’t think I heard him talk about compound intervals much if at all.

    In terms of the line construction stuff it was all about taking scales - mostly the dominant scale (that yer normies call the mixolydian) and generating bop language from that and then applying this to the situations that are likely to come up like minor ii V Is and so on.

    you can talk about 7b9#9 whatnots and so on but I wouldn’t want to give the impression that this is the sort of thing Barry ever talked about; it’s usually the result of people trying to translate it into terms they are familiar with

    And, what did Barry Harris mean when he said to play down from Ab to B? Was he advocating simply running this scale? This has been mentioned before on this forum and I'm trying to understand the context of this instruction.
    Yes that’s what he meant.

    So this has its basis in the scale outline practice routine where scales are run 1-7 1-7–1 through the tune. In the case of a minor ii V, you relate the dominant scale to the IIm7b5 chord (so Eb7 to Gm7b5 say) and run the scale down from the 7 to the third of the C7 chord which is E

    thats the extent of the discussion. Now we run it - go. (200bpm)

    Now we can use that E as the start of a diminished chord and connect into the Fm chord. And so on.

    Barry told you what to do and explained a bunch of ways how to construct great sounding idiomatic bebop lines from basic scales like the dominant. You practice it and get better at bebop. That’s it really. Along the way you learn his personal way of referring to things that are specific and clear to his students but confuse the bejesus out of the normies.

  17. #16

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    I think Chris covers a lot of this stuff on the guitar here:


  18. #17
    Harmonic minor does kind of work over a minor II V I, but it's an iffy scale choice for jazz. It's too esoteric and not rooted in the American harmonic tradition. Jazz borrows from it, but rarely in its pure form. The Django players probably use it more than most.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I'm not sure why I bother posting here....
    "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
    Harmonic minor does kind of work over a minor II V I, but it's an iffy scale choice for jazz. It's too esoteric and not rooted in the American harmonic tradition. Jazz borrows from it, but rarely in its pure form. The Django players probably use it more than most.
    bop is full of harmonic minor

  21. #20

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    It is quite funny how people will just post on a thread like this regardless of whether they know anything about Barry Harris, let alone his ideas on harmonic minor. Ah well, it’s the internet….

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    here's your answer:

    Well it’s not really though is it?

    Because as I understand it the OP is asking ‘how did Barry conceptualise the harmonic minor? Was it always dominant related to the m7b5 down to the third of the dominant?’ At least that’s how I interpreted it.

    You can hear what’s on the records but ten people could give ten different analytical interpretations.

    Now nothing wrong with that necessarily. However when you are asking what Barry thought, you have to base your ideas on what he said rather than what he played.

    Rather clunky, obvious point, but it raises some interesting philosophical aspects - you know, how much does that matter and how can you just work under your own steam?. Anyhoo.

  23. #22
    Barry's "minor’s five” scale.It’s parallel to the 5th mode of harmonic minor. Barry Harris added a note to the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale to balance it. He described his use as "on D-7b5 to G7 play down from the 7th of Bb7 to B the 3rd of G7”.Advantages of this ideal eight tone scale permutation, dare I say, superior permutation:

    1. Places the chord tones on the beats which enables a melody to reinforce the underlying harmony and sound smoother (more melodic).

    2. It also eliminates the harsh augmented second melodic interval found in the seven-tone 5th mode of harmonic minor.

    3. Gives improvisers easy access to their often far more familiar dominant scale vocabulary. Rather than the less familiar territory known as the unbalanced "5th mode of harmonic minor."

    4. It makes use of a Mixolydian scale a minor third away from the same “family” of interchangeable dominant scales. For example, G7 Bb7 Db7, and E7 are all relatives in bebop and may all interchange or borrow each others Mixolydian scales. Notice that this family of dominants includes the “backdoor” chord, the tritone sub, and the “minor’s five”.
    Attached Images Attached Images Barry Harris's opinion of harmonic minor scale?-ii-v-i-minor-scales-variant-jpg 
    Last edited by rintincop; 03-21-2022 at 01:35 PM.

  24. #23

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    Hmmm, I literally don't understand most of the 'theory' being discussed here. Either people are over analysing or I'm not advanced in my musical journey enough to get the points.

    For me its simple, the 7th of the harmonic minor is the 3rd of the 5 chord, so stick it in when the 5 chord is in play to make it all sound nice.

    Tbh I've never even thought 'ooh I'm playing the harmonic minor here', I just think 'ooh, heres the 3rd of the 5 chord... Nice!'

  25. #24

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    Makes sense, HM on a ii V is a very "swing" sound, and Barry was professor bebop.

  26. #25

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    Part of the problem here may be the expectation that Barry (and Bird and Bud) should be regularly playing the harmonic minor scale in its unadulterated form. That rarely happens even with the major scale.

    One of the main challenges is dealing with the awkward interval between the b6 and 7. Two common solutions were to pivot upwards at that juncture in the scale (3 to b9) or to fill out the same leap with a dominant-related diminished arpeggio:

    Barry Harris's opinion of harmonic minor scale?-harmonic-minor-jpeg
    Last edited by PMB; 03-21-2022 at 12:33 AM.